Georgia Population Figures

[gah]

In the time it took you to post here complaining about the error you found on Wikipedia, you could have corrected it and helped the next person that came along. As it happens there are less "myths and fables" on Wikipedia than oh, say... this forum, where you choose to waste your time in a rather parochial argument about which city is the second, third, fourth largest in Georgia.

As a matter of fact, I was not complaining about the error on Wiki (as i said, I could not care less). I was merely citing an example as a challenge to your assertion that the editing on Wiki was such that it could be relied on as a reliable source of information.

In the time it took you to post this comment, you, as a self-professed Wiki "editor" could have corrected it yourself and helped those, unlike me, who choose to rely on its info as a primary source.

there is no "parochial argument" about the rank of GA cities. That is a matter of fact -- unless of course you look at Wiki for the info , in which case it can -- and often does -- become a matter of myth and fable.

[PJA]

^Anyone can edit Wikipedia. Thats why its both good and bad. If you add a fact you'd better be able to cite a source.

Does anyone have any economic figures on the second-tier metros?

It would be interesting to see how the cities compare economically. Macon, being the largest city in Middle Georgia and being well positioned with interstates and access to Atlanta, I-75, and I-16 with links to the Port of Savannah may actually rank higher than some of you think.

I will have those for you tonight or tomorrow.

[Lady Celeste]

^Anyone can edit Wikipedia. Thats why its both good and bad. If you add a fact you'd better be able to cite a source.

Does anyone have any economic figures on the second-tier metros?

It would be interesting to see how the cities compare economically. Macon, being the largest city in Middle Georgia and being well positioned with interstates and access to Atlanta, I-75, and I-16 with links to the Port of Savannah may actually rank higher than some of you think.

Here is a chart that was provided by Krazeeman. He so graciously looked up the information for me in the North Georgia Secession Thread.

[gah]

Here is a chart that was provided by Krazeeman. He so graciously looked up the information for me in the North Georgia Secession Thread.

Interesting BUT

it seems that figures include only the portion of MSA's that are in GA. The population figures for Augusta, Chattanooga, Columbus are low -- which seems to indicate that SC, Tenn And Ala portions of respective MSA's not included. If so, table accurate for Ga portions of those MSA's, but not entire MSA's

I just looked at the original chart on the Secession thread and indeed only in-state portions of those MSA's are in is tabulations -- thus Augusta, Chattanooga and Columbus MSA's all "shortchanged." Are comparing portions of those three MSA's to entire MSA's of remaining.

[Lady Celeste]

Even still they are all higher than Macon; wasn't that the whole premises for finding this information. Just kidding.

Since the metros you listed have portions that fall outside of the state line, I would have assumed that the average poster here on UP could conclude that the figures would be higher once you add in the portions that fall outside of the state of Georgia. I found this of no consequence to restate since adding the portions outside the state probably would not change the standings as they currently are situated. It would only add to the numbers. I think Spartan was trying to see what impact each metro had. Adding the SC portion to Augusta will make it higher than it already is...I doubt that adding the AL portion to Columbus would be enough to surpass Augusta. Columbus would be higher but ranking still the same. Therefore it would be more valid but not rank changing than the list provided.

Stating this, it is clear that Augusta is number two in the state in terms of economic importance. One could easily gather that August is also the number two metro predominantly in Georgia. The graph did list the metros numerically in a national order. I would take this to mean that the numerical listing nationally is still valid (which is apropos to the discussion) while the economic importance to Georgia is segregated to the column to the far right.

After reading some of the fact gathering post for the second tier cities, I find this thread to be very interesting. It's also quite telling.

Edit: After reviewing the graph, Columbus MSA could potentially surpass Savannah MSA with the addition of the portion of the MSA that falls in Alabama. I have no idea of which Alabama counties fall within the Columbus MSA or which SC counties that fall within the Augusta MSA. We must all remember that this does not encompass the CSA. Therefore Gainesville MSA is listed seperately from Atlanta MSA although the both make up one CSA. I mention this for us to not add counties that are apart of the CSA but not the MSA. Okay, carry on.

[gah]

Even still they are all higher than Macon; wasn't that the whole premises for finding this information. Just kidding.

Since the metros you listed have portions that fall outside of the state line, I would have assumed that the average poster here on UP could conclude that the figures would be higher once you add in the portions that fall outside of the state of Georgia. I found this of no consequence to restate since adding the portions outside the state probably would not change the standings as they currently are situated. It would only add to the numbers. I think Spartan was trying to see what impact each metro had. Adding the SC portion to Augusta will make it higher than it already is...I doubt that adding the AL portion to Columbus would be enough to surpass Augusta. Columbus would be higher but ranking still the same. Therefore it would be more valid but not rank changing than the list provided.

Stating this, it is clear that Augusta is number two in the state in terms of economic importance. One could easily gather that August is also the number two metro predominantly in Georgia. The graph did list the metros numerically in a national order. I would take this to mean that the numerical listing nationally is still valid (which is apropos to the discussion) while the economic importance to Georgia is segregated to the column to the far right.

After reading some of the fact gathering post for the second tier cities, I find this thread to be very interesting. It's also quite telling.

Edit: After reviewing the graph, Columbus MSA could potentially surpass Savannah MSA with the addition of the portion of the MSA that falls in Alabama. I have no idea of which Alabama counties fall within the Columbus MSA or which SC counties that fall within the Augusta MSA. We must all remember that this does not encompass the CSA. Therefore Gainesville MSA is listed seperately from Atlanta MSA although the both make up one CSA. I mention this for us to not add counties that are apart of the CSA but not the MSA. Okay, carry on.

There is no dispute that chart is accurate for what it is. My point is that unless it is clearly disclosed that chart reflects only in-state potion of MSA's (as was done when posted in Secession thread) then it might be misconstrued as a true comparison of MSA's. Certainly Augusta is # 2 in economics as would be expected since is # 2 in population (both in-state and entire MSA) and that would only be enhanced by addition of SC figures. But as you figured out, addition of Russell County in Al might change the rankings for Columbus -- I have no idea either, but the point is that it could. Even if rank did not change the difference between the raw figures and dollar #'s would sure be changed so that the magnitude of difference would be lessened or increased.

The folks from Macon can urge -- legitimately -- that chart is not a true reflection of Macon economy, since WR figures should be combined. Ie, Macon-WR CSA is proper entity for judging economic clout. Likewise, Columbus could claim that addition of A-O (in its CSA) is a better reflection of its economy. That is of course an academic debate.

To be truly objective, there should probably be several charts of comparative economic stats

1) Compare cities (within corporate limits) -- ie, ~ 500,000 for Atlanta, ~185,000 for Columbus, ~ 190,000 for Augusta etc

2) Compare counties (Fulton, Muscogee, Richmond, etc)

3) Compare in-Ga MSA --as this chart does

4) Compare MSA's in their entirety

5) Compare metro areas (MSA's and CSA's)

Then we could pick and choose which ever chart we wanted to tout the economic strength of our own area!

[yerocal]

There is no dispute that chart is accurate for what it is. My point is that unless it is clearly disclosed that chart reflects only in-state potion of MSA's (as was done when posted in Secession thread) then it might be misconstrued as a true comparison of MSA's. Certainly Augusta is # 2 in economics as would be expected since is # 2 in population (both in-state and entire MSA) and that would only be enhanced by addition of SC figures. But as you figured out, addition of Russell County in Al might change the rankings for Columbus -- I have no idea either, but the point is that it could. Even if rank did not change the difference between the raw figures and dollar #'s would sure be changed so that the magnitude of difference would be lessened or increased.

The folks from Macon can urge -- legitimately -- that chart is not a true reflection of Macon economy, since WR figures should be combined. Ie, Macon-WR CSA is proper entity for judging economic clout. Likewise, Columbus could claim that addition of A-O (in its CSA) is a better reflection of its economy. That is of course an academic debate.

To be truly objective, there should probably be several charts of comparative economic stats

1) Compare cities (within corporate limits) -- ie, ~ 500,000 for Atlanta, ~185,000 for Columbus, ~ 190,000 for Augusta etc

2) Compare counties (Fulton, Muscogee, Richmond, etc)

3) Compare in-Ga MSA --as this chart does

4) Compare MSA's in their entirety

5) Compare metro areas (MSA's and CSA's)

Then we could pick and choose which ever chart we wanted to tout the economic strength of our own area!

I agree, that chart is not a true reflection of Macon economy, since WR figures should indeed be combined, Macon & WR are to close to be seperate and whatever reason the US census, the state or who ever has the ability to do so was just a stupid move that's about as dumb as putting atlanta and decatur in two seperate MSA's..... There is more than enough, interaction between the two to be combined.... I mean i think WR is closers to Macon than augusta is aiken and in fact it's in another state and they are combine this makes no sense but in the near future i'm sure there won't be an issue with seperation with Macon & WR due to so much economic growth......

[PJA]

I have some more information from the census site which will tell more about the economy for each metro. Now They only had information based on MSA not CSA because I did try to find both but apparently the folks at the us census felt that the economy for each MSA was the only important factor. These numbers are from 2002 because the economic census is only done every five years. The next one will be for 2007.

This first chart is the total revenue done by all business establishments in each metro.

1. Augusta...................30,590,591,000

2. Savannah................21,028,456,000

3. Columbus................16,209,643,000

4. Macon.....................13,869,467,000

I further showed a break down of some of the main categories of business in each metro.

This next chart is the total revenue done by just the retail establishments in each metro.

1. Augusta...................5,653,874,000

2. Savannah................3,360,695,000

3. Columbus................2.784,723,000

4. Macon....................2,450,858,000

This next chart is the total revenue by just the food and hospitality establishments in each metro.

1. Savannah................643,155,000

2. Augusta...................565,364,000

3. Columbus................400,661,000

4. Macon.....................300,860,000

This final chart shows the total amount of payroll paid out by all the businesses with at least one employee in each metro. These payroll stats are from 2005.

1. Augusta................6,077,760,000

2. Savannah.............4,081,539,000

3. Columbus.............2,803,093,000

4. Macon..................2,699,887,000

I could do the CSA if requested but it would require me to manually add up each MSA in a CSA.

[PJA]

I agree, that chart is not a true reflection of Macon economy, since WR figures should indeed be combined, Macon & WR are to close to be seperate and whatever reason the US census, the state or who ever has the ability to do so was just a stupid move that's about as dumb as putting atlanta and decatur in two seperate MSA's..... There is more than enough, interaction between the two to be combined.... I mean i think WR is closers to Macon than augusta is aiken and in fact it's in another state and they are combine this makes no sense but in the near future i'm sure there won't be an issue with seperation with Macon & WR due to so much economic growth......

North Augusta is in Aiken county and it is closer to Augusta than Warner Robins is to Macon. And being in a different state has nothing to do with how each city interacts. The fact of the matter is Aiken is a also apart of the urbanized area of Augusta and Warner Robins has it's own urbanized area separate from Macon which means they don't interact nearly as much as Augusta and Aiken. Since you haven't studied the interactions between both you have no basis on which to form your statements.

BTW even if all of the CSA stats were included, I bet that Macon would still be in last place, because Savannah and Columbus are part of CSA's as well.

[gah]

PJA -- Great job and thanx for the effort.

BTW, do you know whether the last stats include govt payrolls or only private? Might make a difference (to some, at any rate) if the economic impact of Ft Benning, Ft. Gordon, Ft Stewart and WR AF Base were not included in the stats

[PJA]

PJA -- Great job and thanx for the effort.

BTW, do you know whether the last stats include govt payrolls or only private? Might make a difference (to some, at any rate) if the economic impact of Ft Benning, Ft. Gordon, Ft Stewart and WR AF Base were not included in the stats

I can say off the top, that WR AF base is not included as it is its own metro. I doubt that the other posts are included in the payroll as well becasue when looking at the categories of businesses I didn't see any place where military personnel would fit. In fact I don't believe that any government jobs are included in the payroll numbers...I will have to look at this a little more closely.

[gah]

I can say off the top, that WR AF base is not included as it is its own metro. I doubt that the other posts are included in the payroll as well becasue when looking at the categories of businesses I didn't see any place where military personnel would fit. In fact I don't believe that any government jobs are included in the payroll numbers...I will have to look at this a little more closely.

Thanx again. If WR AF base totally in Houston, then, as you say, would not impact # for Macon MSA

I assume FT Gordon is in Richmond (or a county in Augusta MSA)?

Ft. Benning is in Muscogee/Chatthoochee so would impact Columsus MSA payroll #

Like WR AF Base, Ft Stewart may fall outside Savannah MSA and into Hinesville. Not sure.

[augga706]

Here is a chart that was provided by Krazeeman. He so graciously looked up the information for me in the North Georgia Secession Thread.

augusta beat savannah for number 2 in ga.

share of state augusta 3.9% and savannah 3.8%

Total in millions aug 11,087 sav 10,921.

Thats pretty good, i thought the ports and tourist might win out.

[augga706]

This is the number of building permits from 2006 and the construction cost. census.gov

Fulton 9,658 - 2,121,438,002

Chatham 2,744 - 441,527,656

Richmond 815 - 113,683,900

Muscogee 755 - 103,987,807

Bibb 636 - 78,670,168

suburbs

Gwinnett(atl) 7,929 - 1,015,349,204

Dekalb(atl) 2,920 - 714,848,003

Houston(mcn) 1,711 - 247,791,570

Columbia(aug) 1,386 - 247,662,871

Aiken(aug) 1,144 - 173,007,080 (edgefieldpart) 141- 22,143, 430

Lee(col) 1,010 - 200,653, 747

Effingham(sav) 951 - 125, 986,747

Liberty(sav) 262 - 35,757,088

Jones(mcn) 238 - 42,624,365

Russell(col) 82 - 8,179,000

[Lady Celeste]

The folks from Macon can urge -- legitimately -- that chart is not a true reflection of Macon economy, since WR figures should be combined. Ie, Macon-WR CSA is proper entity for judging economic clout. Likewise, Columbus could claim that addition of A-O (in its CSA) is a better reflection of its economy. That is of course an academic debate.

To be truly objective, there should probably be several charts of comparative economic stats

1) Compare cities (within corporate limits) -- ie, ~ 500,000 for Atlanta, ~185,000 for Columbus, ~ 190,000 for Augusta etc

2) Compare counties (Fulton, Muscogee, Richmond, etc)

3) Compare in-Ga MSA --as this chart does

4) Compare MSA's in their entirety

5) Compare metro areas (MSA's and CSA's)

Then we could pick and choose which ever chart we wanted to tout the economic strength of our own area!

The initial question from Spartan was about metros not combined statistical areas. I provided information for the question asked. He really did specifically say metros.

[Lady Celeste]

I agree, that chart is not a true reflection of Macon economy, since WR figures should indeed be combined, Macon & WR are to close to be seperate and whatever reason the US census, the state or who ever has the ability to do so was just a stupid move that's about as dumb as putting atlanta and decatur in two seperate MSA's..... There is more than enough, interaction between the two to be combined.... I mean i think WR is closers to Macon than augusta is aiken and in fact it's in another state and they are combine this makes no sense but in the near future i'm sure there won't be an issue with seperation with Macon & WR due to so much economic growth......

Decatur is not has never been a metro. Decatur is within 15 miles of downtown Atlanta. Warner Robins is not. You cannot divide true suburbs of Atlanta from the core and not do the same with Warner Robins/Macon. Warner Robins is not suburban Macon. Decatur is suburban Atlanta. In fact its an inner suburb. It lies solely within I-285. A question can not be possed and once information is provided then the goal post are moved. Either we do metros or we do CSA's. In question initially possed asked for metros. Sorry that I gave information regarding the question possed. Gainesville is a seperate metro from Atlanta...therefore it's numbers are not added to Atlanta's total. If Spartan wanted CSA's then I would not have provided the information I did.

[gah]

Decatur is not has never been a metro. Decatur is within 15 miles of downtown Atlanta. Warner Robins is not. You cannot divide true suburbs of Atlanta from the core and not do the same with Warner Robins/Macon. Warner Robins is not suburban Macon. Decatur is suburban Atlanta. In fact its an inner suburb. It lies solely within I-285. A question can not be possed and once information is provided then the goal post are moved. Either we do metros or we do CSA's. In question initially possed asked for metros. Sorry that I gave information regarding the question possed. Gainesville is a seperate metro from Atlanta...therefore it's numbers are not added to Atlanta's total. If Spartan wanted CSA's then I would not have provided the information I did.

No need to be defensive. Think we all know (or should) know diference between MSA and CSA. Noone has disputed that Chart supplied did provide (at least partially) info sought regarding MSAs.

However, the argument could be made that Macon/WR and Columbus/A/O CSA are a "better" reflection of local economy than simply Macon and Columbus MSAs.

In other words, "problem" (for lack of better word) is not with chart (other than incomplete MSA's), but with premise that MSA (rather than "metro" defined broadly as Either MSA Or CSA) is the proper "goalpost" for comparing "economy."

[augga706]

From 2005 the number of total establishments in major industry and number of employees. MSA(all) and CSA(not atl and aug)

Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marretta 130,133 (#of employees 2,128,408)

Augusta-Richmond county 10,581 (179,573)

Savannah CSA 8,986 (136,482)

Savannah 8,130 (125,283) Hinesville-Ft. Stewart 856 (11,199)

Columbus CSA 8,162 (137,962)

Columbus, GA-AL 5,890 (99,647 ) Auburn-Opelika 2,272 (38,315)

Macon CSA 8,130 (126,474)

Macon 5,407(86,490) Warner Robins 2,213 (34,345) Ft. valley 510 (5,639)

[Lady Celeste]

No need to be defensive. Think we all know (or should) know where Decatur is located and the difference between MSA and CSA. Chart supplied did provide (partially) info sought regarding MSAs.

However, the argument could be made that Macon/WR anf Columbus/A/O CSA are a "better" reflection of local economy than simply Macon and Columbus MSAs

In other words, "prpblem" (for lack of better word) is not with chart (other than incomplete MSA's), but with premise that MSA (rather than "metro" defined broadly as either MSA or CSA) is the proper "goalpost."

Not defensive at all. Seeking clarity is more like it. The word used by the person who possed the question was metro. Since I am a Realtor and not a mind reader, I took metro to mean just that...metro. As I said in my initial post regarding the matter, the whole recent topic is quite telling.

[gah]

Not defensive at all. Seeking clarity is more like it. The word used by the person who possed the question was metro. Since I am a Realtor and not a mind reader, I took metro to mean just that...metro. As I said in my initial post regarding the matter, the whole recent topic is quite telling.

Does "metro" necessarily mean "MSA"? Thought that MSA means Metropolitan Statstical Area -- a term of art. Metro -- to me -- is a looser term and could have several meanings -- MSA, CSA or even Trade Area. Guess what "metro" means can ge quite telling.

[Lady Celeste]

Does "metro" necessarily mean "MSA"? Thought that MSA means Metropolitan Statstical Area -- a term of art. Metro -- to me -- is a looser term and could have several meanings -- MSA, CSA or even Trade Area. Guess what "metro" means can ge quite telling.

Maybe that is something that needs to be clarified. Does metro mean metro...as in MSA or CSA? Having lived only in metro Atlanta from a very very young age, I have always heard people to use metro as the metro. Growing up and coming of age, I have seen the metro grow. Likewise, and perhaps I am telling my age, what we know as the CSA used to be called Greater Atlanta. I have always understood Greater Atlanta to be seperate from Metro Atlanta. Even the Atlanta Regional Commission makes the distinction between what is known as metro Atlanta and "greater" Atlanta. Just as there is Metro Dallas and then there is the Dallas Metroplex...which includes Fort Worth.

Thats why I gave my rebuttal to you. It was not to dispute you personally but it was to gather upon what standard are we going to base the information? Are we going to go metro as asked....or try to guess if the questioner meant metro, CSA and now Trade Area. Perhaps it may be best that we allow Spartan to give the meaning of his "metro." All else is pure speculation wouldn't you agree?

[gah]

Maybe that is something that needs to be clarified. Does metro mean metro...as in MSA or CSA? Having lived only in metro Atlanta from a very very young age, I have always heard people to use metro as the metro. Growing up and coming of age, I have seen the metro grow. Likewise, and perhaps I am telling my age, what we know as the CSA used to be called Greater Atlanta. I have always understood Greater Atlanta to be seperate from Metro Atlanta. Even the Atlanta Regional Commission makes the distinction between what is known as metro Atlanta and "greater" Atlanta. Just as there is Metro Dallas and then there is the Dallas Metroplex...which includes Fort Worth.

Thats why I gave my rebuttal to you. It was not to dispute you personally but it was to gather upon what standard are we going to base the information? Are we going to go metro as asked....or try to guess if the questioner meant metro, CSA and now Trade Area. Perhaps it may be best that we allow Spartan to give the meaning of his "metro." All else is pure speculation wouldn't you agree?

if you are saying that "metro" (small "m") is pure speculation -- I have to agree. Since that has been precisely my point from the beginning. Small 'm' metro does NOT -- to me at any rate -- invariably mean MSA. (And neither do I think that CSA translates into "Greater" Atlanta (or "Greater" Columbus or Macon or or any other singular city) -- you probably do NOT want to call the Dallas-Ft Worth CSA "Greater Dallas" or "Dallas Metroplex" when you are in Ft. Worth.

My additional point is that if "metro" does mean MSA in the question, then is MSA really the only accurate measure by which to make valid comparisons of "metro" economies? Not saying that is not, but questioning the assumption that it necessarily is.

[gah]

From 2005 the number of total establishments in major industry and number of employees. MSA(all) and CSA(not atl and aug)

Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marretta 130,133 (#of employees 2,128,408)

Augusta-Richmond county 10,581 (179,573)

Savannah CSA 8,986 (136,482)

Savannah 8,130 (125,283) Hinesville-Ft. Stewart 856 (11,199)

Columbus CSA 8,162 (103,462)

Columbus, GA-AL 5,890 (99,647 ) Auburn-Opelika 2,272 (38,315)

Macon CSA 8,130 (126,474)

Macon 5,407(86,490) Warner Robins 2,213 (34,345) Ft. valley 510 (5,639)

The numbers for Columbus-A-O CSA emplyment dont seem to add up. Shouldnt total be ~ 138,000?

[augga706]

number of total establishments in major industry and number of employees. MSA(all) and CSA(not atl and aug)

Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marretta 130,133 (#of employees 2,128,408)

Augusta-Richmond county 10,581 (179,573)

Savannah CSA 8,986 (136,482)

Savannah 8,130 (125,283) Hinesville-Ft. Stewart 856 (11,199)

Columbus CSA 8,162 (103,462)

Columbus, GA-AL 5,890 (99,647 ) Auburn-Opelika 2,272 (38,315)

Macon CSA 8,130 (126,474)

Macon 5,407(86,490) Warner Robins 2,213 (34,345) Ft. valley 510 (5,639)

The numbers for Columbus-A-O CSA emplyment dont seem to add up. Shouldnt total be ~ 138,000?

yeah columbus is third in jobs 137, 962

columbus msa

http://censtats.census.gov/cgi-bin/msanaic/msasect.pl

csa auburn-opeklika

http://censtats.census.gov/cgi-bin/msanaic/msasect.pl

[PJA]

I don't think metro means CSA...just MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area) since the word is short for metropolitan. Here's a link that discusses metropolitan areas (and they also subsitute the word metro).

Census definition of Metropolitan and Mircopolitan Areas

I think the purpose of a CSA was just to establish that a relationship does exist between two or more metros or micros, but other than that when looking statistics for most anything else, MSA statistics are only used and when talking about metros or micros most are talking about MSA's. One thing that I noticed is that the census website doesn't really compare CSA's to MSA's either. It's like to them they are two different animals. They also don't have a lot of information on CSA's outside of population and and a few other things.