Wilmore, Charlotte

[atlrvr]

Lots of kids in Wilmore, just not a lot of white ones (just being honest). Check out the streets around 4 right after schools let out. My step brother and his wife live in Wilmore with their three kids. One of my good friends from college lives there with his two also. But for the most part new arrivals in the 'hood are childless.

Well that's what I meant.....Dilworth appeals to a broader range of buyers, because families with children and can afford to chose where they live would consider sending their kids to Eastover or Dilworth Elementaries, AG Middle, and MP High......they are probably less willing to send their kids to Irwin Ave Elementary, Spaugh Middle, and West Charlotte HS.

I do think the Wilmore is a great neighborhood from an existing buildings stock standpoint, and will only improve as the Tryon and Mint street corridors fillin with new housing/retail. Like Char_nat said, looking at $psf is much more important than sales price.

Also, as far as cheap renovations....typically anything is better than no renovation. The curb appeal to the properties are improved, and that has a positive affect on the whole neighborhood. If some buyers get suckered in on a half-ass renovation, the property will eventually shake itself out once the whole neighborhood as stabilized, and buyers have a large choice among quality products.

[voyager12]

Yes, CN I do love walking up and down East on Sundays, its part of my Sunday NYT&Bagel ritual It would be nice to have more color and liven things up a bit,and this is happening. That new realty office down the block from me looks great and I also like the pink awnings the new design store has and Red Sky Gallery opened across from the HT and has placed artwork outside. There is so much in the works along West that its going to get more refined too, but hopefully not lose its more eclectic edge.

[monsoon]

Dilworth and Wilmore are so close to each other. What was the issue or issues that prevented the revitalization from hopping across to West Blvd? .....

I was here when the revitalization of Dilworth started and I can tell you there were two big reasons why people chose the houses in Dilworth vs those in Wilmore.

First, the houses are simply better in Dilworth. There are many large homes in Dilworth that don't exist in Wilmore. I am mainly referring to the part of Dilworth between East and Morehead around Latta Park, and the homes that line Dilworth Rd. and W. Dilworth Rd. There is no similar area in Wilmore. This is were the revitalization began in the late 70s and it spread from there. Dilworth was originally the home to managers of Charlotte's business and Wilmore was home to mill workers. The houses reflect this. I agree that for the most part the homes on Worthington and Tremont are not really that much different from what is found in Wilmore but because they are on the right side of South Blvd they benefitted. BTW, most long term Charlotteans don't really consider these streets to be part of Dilworth.

Second, Dilworth is considered to be where traditional SE Charlotte begins. This is roughly the wedge of town beween Park Rd and Randolph/Sardis Rds where all of Charlotte's well off lived, and for decades and decades was the area where one lived that had "made it". Like Independence Blvd, South Blvd is one of the historic economic, racial, and social dividing lines in this city, and Wilmore is on the wrong side of it.

These are the reasons that Dilworth is in its 3rd decade of gentrification and Wilmore is still an experiment on what might or might not happen. We have discussed before the issues with this neighborhood and I am convinced that part of it, especially the part closer to I-77 will never be another Dilworth.

Finally the school system really had no effect on where gentrification took place in this city between 1970 and 2000. This is because there is a countywide school system here and during the days of school busing, your neighborhood did not affect where you went to school. However since the suburban parents successfully sued the school system and ended busing in 2001 or so, this was replaced by school choice and now even this is being tossed out. Where you live now definiately affects where your kids go to school and the long term effects on Charlotte are unknown.

[Charlotte_native]

First, the houses are simply better in Dilworth. There are many large homes in Dilworth that don't exist in Wilmore. I am mainly referring to the part of Dilworth between East and Morehead around Latta Park, and the homes that line Dilworth Rd. and W. Dilworth Rd. There is no similar area in Wilmore. This is were the revitalization began in the late 70s and it spread from there. Dilworth was originally the home to managers of Charlotte's business and Wilmore was home to mill workers. The houses reflect this.

These are the reasons that Dilworth is in its 3rd decade of gentrification and Wilmore is still an experiment on what might or might not happen. We have discussed before the issues with this neighborhood and I am convinced that part of it, especially the part closer to I-77 will never be another Dilworth.

Precisely - the homes in Wilmore, on average, are smaller than Dilworth -- Wilmore = 1100 - 1400 SF is the average original home size, Dilworth probably more like 1600 - 2500 but it is hard to tell now since few remain that haven't been added to!

The part of Wilmore that is close to 77, Dunkirk Avenue, part of Spruce Street, lots of Merriman Avenue (the parts near West Blvd) has not seen the interest as the rest of the neighborhood. That part really should be considered a whole different market. Not only are those blocks really close to the interstate, but the homes were, for the most part, built in the 40's and 50's and do not have the curb appeal, quality of construction, high ceilings, and other amenities people typically want in an older home. I think this area is similar to McDonal Ave and Magolia, Diana, etc in Dilworth - though Dilworth has been popular and "changed" for a couple decades, that part didn't really "hit" until a year or two ago.

Wilmore will likely continue to evolve, but the parts that are closest to SouthEnd, along Wilmore Drive or Park Ave (where the average origninal houses are really the same as Dilworth) and those with skyline views will move considerably faster than those closer to the interstate or on the South side of West blvd.

[monsoon]

Another point to this. When gentrification of Dilworth began in the late 1970s, I-277 was not there so there was not the issue of homes being near a freeway. Instead most of the streets just meandered into the downtown area. It might have been quite different if they had built that highway a decade earlier.

[Charlotte_native]

Like Independence Blvd, South Blvd is one of the historic economic, racial, and social dividing lines in this city, and Wilmore is on the wrong side of it.

The interesting part of this, for any of us that have been in Charlotte for more than 5 or 10 years, is watching the West Side. The statement above would be accurate for ANY neighborhood on the west side of I-77. Anyone from Charlotte would have held that area, right or wrong, as the wrong side of the tracks and it was traditionally overlooked in everything from infrastructure, schools, opinion and prejudice, and values (by far).

That all SEEMS to be changing with places jumping like Wesley Heights, the neighborhoods around JC Smith, and other little pockets of homes. I can't say if I think it will last, but I don't see why it won't. Once enough people move in and improve what they have it should stabilize.

Personally I think one of the bigger driving factors in this is the fact that those coming from outside Charlotte weren't born and bred to think anything negative of any part of town. They see a current picture rather than views from the past. They don't know what Wesley Heights WAS like, just what it IS like. Those of us that knew of the past of these areas have opinions that are hard to shake and might not be accurate -- I am often one of them. (still REAL skeptical about Belmont!) Newcomers, however, probably have a more open-mindset than us oldtimers and are driving these changes.

[monsoon]

Real Estate Agents. There is a big tendency to steer newcomers to certain neighborhoods, especially to SE Charlotte. It's been that way for a long time, and I suspect that it continues. I think people figure out fairly quickly where the good neighborhoods are located and the areas to avoid.

Wilmore, Wesley Heights, and surrounding areas might have limited success with urban pioneers, investors and flippers, but as I mentioned above the situation with the school system had made a paradigm shift over the last 3-4 years. That is, the shift from location didn't matter to location matters greatly. I think it will have a definite effect on these places and one that isn't understood yet.

[Charlotte_native]

Wilmore, Wesley Heights, and surrounding areas might have limited success with urban pioneers, investors and flippers, but as I mentioned above the situation with the school system had made a paradigm shift over the last 3-4 years. That is, the shift from location didn't matter to location matters greatly. I think it will have a definite effect on these places and one that isn't understood yet.

True for those w/ families. My family that lives in Wilmore home schools, my friends from college that live there have kids that are 1 and 2 so they aren't looking at schools yet. Other than that everyone I know in the 'hood is either gay or not looking to have children.

[monsoon]

True for those w/ families. My family that lives in Wilmore home schools, my friends from college that live there have kids that are 1 and 2 so they aren't looking at schools yet. Other than that everyone I know in the 'hood is either gay or not looking to have children.

That is a common mistake but it does matter greatly to people who don't have children as well. Neighborhoods tend not to do well in the long run if they don't attract to middle class people with children. We are talking about resale here and there really are not many buyers in Charlotte that are not concerned about that.

[lewy2000]

Here's a perspective from somone who recently renovated and moved into a house in Wilmore (me)...

I bought my house for three reasons:

• Location, duh. Only a mile from Uptown, I'm able to walk to Panthers games, the 3rd Ward Park, bars (like the Gin Mill and Amos'), the trolley and someday the Wachovia museum and NASCAR HOF. Unless you live on the western edge of Dilworth, you do not have easy access to these places.

• Character. I can't STAND cookie-cutter subdivisions that dominate Charlotte's suburban scene. All my friends live in these places, and after a visit to one of their cookouts I come home and take a steaming hot shower to rid myself of their homogenous, Levittown vibe. My house was built in 1929, is an absolute one-of-a-kind, and its "bones" will last forever, unlike the materials/wood they use to build today's houses.

• Price. Simply put, I was priced out of Dilworth. I bought my Wilmore house for just over $120 per square foot. Something similar in Dilworth would have cost at least $600,000.

Yes, I have to live in an area some of my friends don't want to visit, but after living here for three weeks let me say that perception is not reality.

I laugh at the guy who posted that he saw open drug dealing and prostitution on my streets. Let's be honest, some people see a black woman walking down the street and they assume she's a prostitute. Some people see some black kids standing on a corner and they assume they're drug dealers. That's not reality.

Oh, about me... single, 30 and white.

[SmellyCat]

^The upswing in violent crime appears to be a national phenomenom, not just specific to this area. A Bloomberg report just came out today about it. Violent crime rose 2.3% last year, the first increase since 2001 and murders increased 3.4% over 2004. The related FBI report cites increased gang activity and drug use as possible reasons.

[monsoon]

I do remember when people were buying houses in Dilworth for $7,000 nobody was afraid to visit there. This is quite different from visiting parts of Wilmore and Wesley Heights today as noted above by Lewy.

[Charlotte_native]

I do remember when people were buying houses in Dilworth for $7,000 nobody was afraid to visit there. This is quite different from visiting parts of Wilmore and Wesley Heights today as noted above by Lewy.

My mom grew on in Montclaire, she tells me that in the 60's and 70's they were told specifically not to go into Dilworth and especially anything along South Blvd.

I think people that are afraid to visit have just never spent much time in an inner city neighborhood. If seeing black people makes you scared I guess it is a bad part of town, but that isn't reality, it is perception.

[monsoon]

If seeing black people makes you scared I guess it is a bad part of town, but that isn't reality, it is perception.

Maybe that was your mom's issue, but I was not implying that Blacks mean danger. There were a lot of racial issues in Charlotte during that period so it is understandable she felt that way. There are deed restrictions on homes in Myer's Park that say you can't sell to Blacks. However for the people moving into Dilworth in the late 70s, and most of them were Gay , it wasn't an issue for them. Blacks don't automatically mean crime.

Aside from that, there simply were no drug deals, gangs, guns being shot off at people, etc in Dilworth in the late 70s as there are in Wilmore and Wesley Heights today. For example, I don't think the ever found a dead body in the middle of the street there.

[kennethlin]

I laugh at the guy who posted that he saw open drug dealing and prostitution on my streets. Let's be honest, some people see a black woman walking down the street and they assume she's a prostitute. Some people see some black kids standing on a corner and they assume they're drug dealers. That's not reality.

Laugh and assume all you want, but if you go back and read my post, you'd see that I NEVER associated the drug dealing and prostitution with anyone's skin color. Get real here. All I was merely pointing out was that I saw what transpired while driving down the Wilmore area a few weeks back. Sure, this kind of stuff can happen ANYWHERE, and even in nice places like Dilworth, Sedgefield, you still see it (by the way, I live very close to Wilmore), but to make the assumption that I saw the deals making and prostitution happening and associated that with a black person, you are clearly blind. Not trying to be offensive, but it looks like you're trying to twist your own insecurities by taking what I saw and translating that to, "oh, I said that because the person's black." Don't start something where you have no knowledge about, it'll come back to hurt your credibility. By the way, I'm Asian, 26...does that make me a drug dealer too...can't we all just get along? Jeez. Seriously though, if you only want to come up here to make racial and stereotypical remarks, this is NOT the place to do it.

Now back to my topic. I first posted about the Wilmore area of Charlotte because it was a hot topic of conversation. It seemed that everyone that I spoke to were trying to get into the area and many were hoping they'd strike it rich buying there. I decided to check it out, and I didn't think it was all that impressive. Sure, many homes are nicely renovated and rebuilt, and I'm also positive that those homes went for $400k-$500k, but those homes sure cost a pretty penny to bring up to that level as well. I guess the classic term is, "you get what you pay for." The main reason why this thread peaked my interest was because it seemed we have some people that are gung ho about Wilmore, while others aren't too sure. My belief is that Wilmore WILL happen, but to say that it is already Dilworth is IMO rediculous. I personally know a few people that've blindly say they can now retire because the homes they bought last year have now tripled in value because their neighbors are selling theirs for $400k-$500k while they only paid $130k. You can't help but laugh because they've never factored in the fact that their neighbors home went through tremendous renovations and probably cost them $200k just to bring it back to life. And I agree with the poster about the Home Depot work vs. Custom work. The difference is day and night, and like you said, people aren't stupid.

[Charlotte_native]

For example, I don't think the ever found a dead body in the middle of the street there.

They did three years ago, just off East Blvd at Latta Park -- I lived 3 blocks away on Tremont. Dead guy shot to death. A woman was raped on East Blvd at Cleveland Ave either last year or the year before.

The oldest parts of Dilworth and those parts around the park have never been that bad, but Tremont Avenue (I've gotten stories from my old time neighbors, and Dilworth behind/south of that, were every bit as bad as other current neighborhoods in Charlotte. It wasn't her impression, that is how it was in the 60's. I never said anything about the late 70's when people started taking the neighborhood back, but Dilworth suffered greatly in the 50's and 60's when everyone rushed out to the newly being built 'burbs.

I never said anything about Blacks at all. Just that Dilworth was run down just like most older neighborhoods can get with the right social changes.

[voyager12]

Heck, in just the last few months Dilworth has experienced a crime spree of car break ins and armed robberies. A guy saw someone breaking into a car on Tremont earlier this week and performed a citizen's arrest until the cops arrived. They think its the guy responsible for dozens of car break ins in Southend recently. Wilmore certainly LOOKS more sketchy than Dilworth but crime has no boundaries.

[monsoon]

No doubt crime is getting worse in the close in neighborhoods. My comments were of Dilworth of 30 years ago and were in reference to gentrification of that time versus now in Wilmore and Wesley Heights.

[MZT]

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/15813488.htm

Not much new, but thought this deserved a link for the quotes from Furman.

[markey]

I visited Charlotte for the first time last weekend and was shocked at all of the building happening around the city. Just for grins I picked up a flyer for a house for sale in the Wilmore neighborhood and was shocked by the price. For 2000 sq. ft. it was "offered" at $429K!! I know Charlotte is growing by leaps and bounds but that seems really overpriced and I just moved from Denver where the home prices were crazy. Can the neighborhood really support those prices right now? I can see it happening in a few years but by the looks of the area it didn't seem that desirable just yet. Are some real estate investors getting a bit too big for their britches these days? I live in Greensboro right now and we've thought about moving to Charlotte for a bigger city feel but that just seems ridiculous.

[Charlotte_native]

There are other close in neighborhoods you can get into for less, but those prices in Wilmore have been established for a year or two now. There was a sale on Kingston in December at $520,000. There have been a few over $300,000 and in the mid $400,000's. It is hard to say if the investors are "too big for their britches" if people are buying what they are offering. Overall central Charlotte neighborhoods across the board have jumped in pricing. Belmont (the neighborhood) has now had a handful of sales over $175,000 and one over $200,000 and it is still a pretty scary place. Basically you are paying for location and hopes of appreciation.

Wilmore, also, is like the rest of the areas. You have investors that do very high quality work (one home on West Blvd had its kitchen featured in a sub-zero appliance ad) and others that seem to be Home Depot specials and everything in between. There are also a number of condo and mixed use projects going up along Camden and Tryon that have sold well and quickly -- these and likely many of the homes that have sold in Wilmore have been influenced by the coming light-rail. I have friends that live in Wilmore and many of them walk to work downtown. I can't do that from my home in Dilworth.

I live in Greensboro right now and we've thought about moving to Charlotte for a bigger city feel but that just seems ridiculous.

[markey]

Well color me shocked if people are willing to pay close to 1/2 million dollars for a house in Wilmore. It's all relative, but from what I saw I still think the houses are overpriced, but obviously I didn't go inside. Time will tell..

[MZT]

You can still get fixer uppers in Wilmore under $200K though. Especially west of Mint street, which seems to be the new psychological divide, like Tryon used to be.

Although... it's interesting that so few of the restored homes are under contract right now. In Madison Park and Montclaire (about 4 miles south) you find around half the homes pending sale.

The rehabbers may have priced ahead of where the real market is.

[MZT]

I got to looking on the MLS today, and brother- there are some really sad looking "restorations" listed. What are these flippers thinking?Check out #637663... only $350,000 for this one. It doesn't seem to be in any hurry to sell... photos were taken back in the fall with leaves on the roof. Sheesh. At least update the pics and show finished interior walls.

[MZT]

Two months later, and time for a bump. I'm more convinced, that the sellers in Wilmore have stepped too far ahead of the real market. I see plenty of under contract listings in other nearby close-in neighborhoods like Madison Park and Sedgefield.

But in Wilmore, there are very few under contract, and those are all under $300K. Meanwhile the expensive listings languish. Such as:

Was $349K in January. Now $335K Still sitting.

Was $375K in January. Now $365K Remains available.

Was $375 in January. No change in price Hasn't sold yet.

Any experienced Realtor will tell you that if you can't get something under contract in two months, there is a problem. And the most common problem, is overpricing.