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Would you move to Canada?


Given the conservative-dominated scenario, would you move?  

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  1. 1. Given the conservative-dominated scenario, would you move?

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Given the nature of elections in recent time in the United States, given the fact that young America appears to be voting more conservative in recent time, and given the potential that the USA could become a neo-conservative controlled state with a weak left-wing opposition for a substantial period of time - would you consider moving to Canada?

I want to propose a scenario:

Bush wins in 2004. Republicans continue to dominate both state governorships, the US Congress, and the Presidency.

The Republicans continue to introduce conservative social policies such as faith-based welfare spending, an anti-gay AMENDMENT to the constitution (historical in nature, first time any group is singled out to specifically call for fewer rights - might I add - if it happens), further laws restricting abortions (Bush signed the partial birth law today - partial birth abortion is abortion after the 12th week, not when the baby is being delivered as its name implies).

Let's pretend Social Security is abolished in its current form and we transfer to a privatized system that is not secure. Let's pretend our medical system continues down the current path and begins to deteriorate worse, and even fewer people have medical care.

Universities and colleges continuously are under-funded, tuition rises, student loans and grants become harder to come by. Less chances for the American Dream.

K-12 public schools are left behind via a new voucher program and accelerated private school promotion spending.

....if these things end up happening, would you even consider moving?

I've already considered moving and its yet to happen. The equal rights for gays and the universal health care issues alone are enough for me.

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Guest donaltopablo

I love Vancouver to death, and understand it's relatively mild, but it's still too cold for me.

BTW I don't have any fears that america will turn neo-conservative, so that is certainly not a driver to get me to want to leave America.

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The grass is not always greener. I find the Democrats are just as bad. Remember political correctness? Say as I think or else? Busing? Affimative Action? Tipper Gore in front of Congress condemning rock and roll as evil. This woman almost became first lady! Very Nancy Reagan-esque! Or even local issues like smoking in bars. Who cares if people smoke in bars? Apparently the Democrats do. Aren't there more important social issues like why does every American city have a ghetto? Or why are homeless veterans and old people freezing to death on park benches in cities like Boston? It's not about helping people, it's about getting re-elected.

I think Bush is wrong on almost all those subjects you mention but if the Democrats didn't drive me away (thank you Ted Kennedy) than the Republicans will not. I like living in this country too much. If the Dems ever do regain power I hope they have learned a little lesson about humility and political bullying, but I doubt it.

Vote Libertarian or Green or write yourself in but for gods sake vote your conscience, not for the lesser of any evil.

btw- The quality of life in Massachusetts/ Boston pretty good so that would not really be a consideration.

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Scott - moving to Canada you get in return a government that actually works for the people and responds to people. Hence why I'd move.

I watched a few commercials that Dalton McGuinty ran when he won as Liberal Premier of Ontario last month, beating Conservative Ernie Eaves bigtime. He said straight up "I won't raise your taxes, but I won't lower them either. Our schools and hospitals desperately need that money." And he won in a landslide.

That'd not happen even in the most "liberal" of US States if you ask me. Either the candidate wouldn't have the balls to do it, or they wouldn't follow up on it if they did get elected.

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Canada is not a utopia. One could argue that it owes quite a bit of its prosperity to its locality next to the US and not to its politicians.

Like I said no matter who is in office they will do things I disagree with, that's democracy. I'd like to see a multi party system but that's another thread. Moving to Canada will only partially lessen the influence the US government will have on your life and certainly remove any voice you may currently have in it.

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If an anti-gay ammendment passed, I would move to Canada without hesitation. I would probably be able to attain political asylum.

However, the other issues I feel we have the ability to work through.

But, I actually would consider moving to Canada without any social or politcal pressures to leave the US. I love Montreal and Halifax, if it weren't that they were in a foreign country and all the hassle that entails, I might be living in one of those cities now.

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The Canadian and US economies are tied closely, but that is not why Canada is as prosperous as it is. NAFTA was only passed in the 1990's you know... Between the Lumber tariffs Bush has imposed that has devastated Western Canada's lumber economy to SARS to the US downturn in our own economy - their economy is outperforming ours as we speak percentage wise in growth - and they've had many problems to deal with. And not only that, Canadians have a damn productive economy per proportion. They are more productive per person then the USA. Only 31 million people and its economy isn't that far behind the US in world rankings...

I'm not ignorant - Canada has its own problems. Its not a utopia, and I know that very well.

But compared to our problems - its laughable. We are arguing over whether we should have universal health insurance. They are arguing over budgets to pay for their system that is in place.

We are arguing over whether or not social security should continue to exist, along with medicare. Canadians are arguing whether they should increase taxes to pay for the service when the economy slows.

We have somewhere in the range of 15,000-30,000 murders a year. They have 150 on average (even proportionally that's out of whack: 150x10 = 1,500 murders).

There is a big difference. We've got problems facing real people that they've dealt with in a much better way.

They have 8% unemployment, and their society isn't ruined by it - their population doesn't have a need to become renegade criminals to go on murderous, assualting rampages. Ours is one where 40-50 million have no health insurance for starters.

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I have NO interest at all in moving to Canada. Yes, there are a lot of things that I don't like about our current government, and it has as much to do with the Democrats as Republicans. But, I believe in working within the American system to change those policies I don't agree with, not running away to some imagined social paradise. Canada is a great country, but I find it hard to believe they are going to welcome with open arms a bunch of disgruntled Americans.

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They did in the Vietnam War. They were friendly to me.

And to me, its not imaginary and idealistic. Its just reality.

They have a system that works for their people better then ours. Its just a fact. They don't have the violent crime rate. They don't have the same level of ghetto indigent areas. They don't have the same problems. They have different problems - its just on another level.

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Here are the facts:


Statistics Canada reports (Violent Crime Rate per 100,000 people nationwide, 2002)

Homicide - 1.9

Attempted Murder - 2.2

Assaults - 748

Larceny-Theft Over $5,000 - 63.3

Larceny-Theft Under $5,000 - 2,128.3

Larceny-Theft Total - 2191.6

Robbery - 85

Property Crimes - 3,959


(requires Microsoft Excel)

FBI Uniform Crime Reports (Violent Crime Rate per 100,000 people nationwide, 2002)

Murder & Man-slaughter - 5.6

Aggravated Assault - 310.1

Larceny-Theft Total - 2,445.8

Robbery - 145.9

Property Crimes - 3,624.1


From what I can tell - Statistics Canada and the FBI report data very differently. The categorization is different, and thus the StatsCan data does report double the rate of "violent crime" - but this cannot be directly compared to the "violent crime" rate found on the US data for the reason stated above - they use different categorization.

If you look at the individual numbers, its simple.

Homicide Rate in Canada - 1.9

Murder & Manslaughter Rate in USA - 5.6

Robbery in Canada - 85

Robbery in USA - 145.9

Assaults are categorized differently, it is totally unfair to compare this!

Non-violent larceny:

Total Larceny in Canada - 2191.6

Total Larceny in USA - 2,445.8

The reason why the Canadian "violent crime" index is higher is because of assaults and assaults alone.

The fact is, StatsCan INCLUDES INTENTIONAL ASSAULT ATTEMPTS not actually carried out in their crime numbers!! The US FBI UCR DOES NOT!

1. "Assault level 1" is the first level of assault. It constitutes the intentional application of force without consent, attempt or threat to apply force to another person, and openly wearing a weapon (or an imitation) and accosting or impeding another person. "Assault with weapon or causing bodily harm" is the second level of assault. It constitutes assault with a weapon, threats to use a weapon (or an imitation), or assault causing bodily harm. "Aggravated assault level 3" is the third level of assault. It applies to anyone who wounds, maims, disfigures or endangers the life of complainant.

2. Includes unlawfully causing bodily harm, discharging firearms with intent, abductions, assaults against police officers, assaults against other peace or public officers and other assaults.

3. Includes dangerous operation of motor vehicle, boat, vessel or aircraft, dangerous operation of motor vehicle, boat, vessel or aircraft causing bodily harm or death, driving motor vehicle while prohibited and failure to stop or remain.

As you can tell - Assault Level 1 in Canada is a threat.

The fact is - violent crime in Canada is a FRACTION of what it is here when you anaylize the data as it is.

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Yes...I walked around downtown Montreal...in the not so good parts, in the dead of night and felt perfectly safe...I would not feel safe walking around the not so good parts of Charlotte in the dead of night.

The other big difference between Canadians and Americans is that Canadians do not lock their doors...whereas down here, that is the first thing you do when you get home, then you turn off your alarm system....

It is REALLY hard to find someone in Canada with a home alarm system...whereas down here in the good ole USA it is quite common.

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A minor correction.  The violent crime rate in Canada is actually higher  than in the USA.  Violent crime including, rape, theft, assaults, etc.

Is it?

From what I've heard it's higher in the States, but perhaps it's higher up here.

Then again it could be a difference in how the numbers are calculated. If we measure the sizes of our metropolitian areas differently, and our unemployment rates (Canada uses more liberal definitions, meaning we include lots of people in that category that the US wouldn't. Doesn't make up for the entire difference between our rate and yours, but it makes a mark. Also because of the size and structure of our economy, we have quite a bit of seasonal unemployment), then why would it be difficult to accept our violent crime rates would be done differently too?

I'm actually quite happy with the move Canada is making - towards a more European way of thinking and legislating. This isn't a slag on the US, but a realization that sometimes it is hard to escape from your gravity. Imagine if you will a world of 60 billion people, and a country just to the south of you with a population of 3 Billion, that has a hand in global events and is seen by many to be dominating culturaly and militarily. More or less that's our reality.

Well if someone's willing to give democratic socialism a try instead of un-abounded capitalism, come on up. Otherwise, hope have a great life down there.

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Why do Americans come north to buy drugs? - Same answer to each question in that each system has certain strengths and weaknesses.

The problem I see with the American system (and granted, not everyone sees this as a problem, and some see it as desireable) is the fact you get treatment based upon what you can afford. Therefore the uber-rich and upper class, and upper middle class need a place for treatment, as such great world class hospitals can sustain themselves. These hospitals can also afford the latest and greatest inventions, meaning some Canadians go south for this stuff (as my dad did, since the Canadian equivalent to a certain treatment was not so equivalent). If you can afford it, and money isn't really much of an object, the American system is clearly desireable on a personal level.

On the other hand, if you're poor and/or uninsured, or middle classed, or can't afford expensive treatment despite having a good job, then the Canadian system ain't so bad. Or if your rich and have a strong societal social conscience, again the Canadian model might be preferable.

But everything above is a gross oversimplification, the nitty gritty can be argued indefinitely, but more or less this is how it plays out.

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Guest donaltopablo

I agree Canuck. Some people prefer the American system where you get what you earn. Some people see this as unfair, or prefer a system where all economical classes of people have it relatively equal.

Personally, I feel like this. I have no problem with what you get based on what you earn, like here in America. However, I only believe this assuming it's fair, everyone has the same opportunity to earn or become successful through their own efforts. I don't think America is completely fair though, and would like to see some things changed. However, I do not think that going to a more social system is my personal answer to the problem.

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How big a difference in violent crime rate are we talking about here. A number of factors could be involved in the differences. Victim reporting could be higher in Canada for instance.

How urban is Canada compared to the US? I.E. which country has the larger percent of people living in cities (I guess we'd have to determine the definition of 'Urban' to find out).

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Not to be a wise guy but why do so many Canadians pay to have proceedures done in the US if Canada has socialized medicine, free to all? If the US's system is so bad how come the best hospitals in the world are there?

Not that many Canadians come across the border to get medical treatment. And there are some Americans who go across the border who are close enough - believe it or not.

Scott - to sum up the big deal, the US has 280+ million people. Canada has 30 million people. Canadians don't have the capacity to have the same amount of research centers and etc. But the amazing thing is that per proportion to population, Canada has a far more productive healthcare system then hours. They have a lot of medical science research going on for such a small nation.

And it is true that the average life expectancy in Canada is higher - for what its worth.

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