JRS1

^^ I hope not... not fronting Orange Ave... hopefully it's another medical bldg with parking behind it.

Atlanta- well, MARTA has been there since the early '80's. Atlanta's population back then was maybe 2M. Atlanta's highway system has doubled in size since they began investing in MARTA, as has their population, over these past 30 years. I'm not saying you can build your way out of congestion, all I'm saying is that I-4 needs to be 8-10 lanes wide through the city. You can't be the size Orlando is in 2009 and have the main highway going through town be only 3 lanes each way through downtown (Ivanhoe through the 408 ramp). That's a joke. That stretch needs to be 10-12 lanes wide. And again, I ask why does it? B/C I-4 is not a local road. Neither is the Turnpike, and, finally, they are widening it from 528/441 to Beulah Rd. in west Orange, over 13 miles of 8 lane highway, as it should be, since that is a major Florida highway cutting through town- just like I-4 does. Now, 408 is a local road, but its the only E/W highway in central Orlando, and 50 and Lake Underhill aren't wide. As for the critical mass for a CRT or LRT to work, I think everyone here is in fact (for the most part) suggesting to forsake improving the highway system to create a need for mass transit. I don't agree with that rationale. Improving I-4 is akin to improving OIA, as both are the first thing visitors see when they come into Orlando, whether by car, bus, or jet. The Turnpike is the other road people use to get in, and those improvements are about a year away from completion. CRT is still alive for now... which makes this discussion moot unless the proposal finally dies.

^^ NYC is it's own animal. NYC has highways everywhere in and around each of their burroughs-- that's why they haven't widened them, b/c they've had these roads for over half a century and NYC had that population even back then. Orlando is different. It's newer for one thing. There is no alternative to I-4 that people consistently take to avoid downtown, so, if there was a bypass close in, those extra travel lanes would factor into the equation. Instead, those extra lanes will have to go to I-4. 417 and 429 may form a loop, but their purpose is to afford alternate N/S access for east and west Orlando metro- mainly, and secondarily, offer an alternative to I-4 for travelers (they probably marketed them differently, though,at the beginning). Chicago is a better example. I-94 cuts through town like I-4 does here. That's why they widened it the way they did in the '90's, to give commuters and travelers the express option to avoid local traffic (for a non-local oriented road). I-4 is a non-local oriented road in the same manner as I-94. Chicago's other N/S option is LSD which is way in or 294 which is way out west. ^^ "More roads- more traffic" studies point: well, you have to improve as a city. CRT would be attractive for new companies looking to open up shop. As- not an alternative, though, to better highways; we need better highways as well; this is a pro-growth perspective. not necessarily pro-sprawl, but sometimes sprawl is a byproduct if regs aren't in place... but in lieu of regs to control growth, we can't neglect our main highway through town b/c some feel that sprawl will ensue, or that it will still be congested- fine, I'll take the congestion, so long as the road is up to specs-- just like Atlanta... I don't mind rush hour on 285 when it's 8-10 lanes of pavement as opposed to I-95 in suburban DC en route to Richmond which is decades behind where it needs to be.

The point is that I-4 needs to be improved; it isn't improved as it stand now, with the exception of several new interchanges built over the past decade and some exit to exit lanes, the longest of which goes from Ivanhoe to Lee Road. You're talking about two different things; Commuter rail doesn't take freight off of semis between I-75 and I-95, nor does it move out of towners passing through town. This is pretty much the point I was trying to make in my last email. I-4 isn't just a local road, and people need to remember that. That's why the junction of I-75/85 is so huge; it's not b/c of Atlanta solely, it's b/c those two interstates criss-cross there and move tens of thousands of vehicles per day notwithstanding local traffic. you can't forsake a road that has statewide significance just because some Deltona residents want to take CRT to Fla. Hosp., and b/c some people in Waterford Lakes want to take LRT someday to downtown. One has nothing to do with the other. Even if it was all local traffic one would have nothing to do with the other-- when you consider all of the work/company vehicles on the road-- are they going to take a train to their next job or delivery? no, they aren't. I-4 being widened isn't a "wish" of mine b/c of some grand vison for Orlando that I have, it is an objective necessity. Of course my viewpoint is not "politically correct" on these boards, since most everyone here loves the arts, trains, high density urban living, and detests suburban development, sprawl, and asphalt. personally, I really don't care. Look at Chicago. They have the El and METRA and they still made I-94 super wide with express lanes down the middle of it. Why would they do that with all of the mass transit infrastructure that they already have? WHy would NYC build so many bridges and tunnels to Manhattan with the Subway as expansive as it is? The answer is b/c it is necessary. For anyone else out there reading this: shoot the messenger if you like, but first take a look at those two cities before you do. And I don't want to hear the fallacy argument that we need to keep the highways narrow to keep people closer to increase density to warrant the construction of mass transit rail, b/c that's a flawed argument, and it doesn't apply to an interstate even if it was a valid one.

well, then we'll agree to disagree. ped friendly vs hotel rooms in no matter what form is one thing, but cutting off lanes b/c Atlanta has 19 lanes thru their downtown and its still congested? Atlanta has 5 million people metro. All of FLorida's highway freight to the midwest moves thru I-75; it has to be that wide (BTW, I don't think it's that wide; the most I remember was 7 & 7 including the HOV lane continuous lanes, not counting exit to exit lanes). I've seen the easement thru College Park. I never said to widen I-4 thru College Park. It's already 8 lanes from Lee Rd. to Ivanhoe. What they need to do is widen it from Ivanhoe to 408 to something like 12 lanes instead of the 6 it has now; the easement is there. Then, widen the JYP Bridge to 8 lanes, so I-4 is 8 lanes from OBT thru Conroy exit. Then, widen I-4 past the Turnpike exit to 8 lanes all the way to 528 or C Fla Pkwy (wherever it cuts off), and widen the SLR Bridge to allow for it. Then, widen the 535 bridge to allow 8 lanes, and then widen it to 8 lanes to World Drive by Celebration to avoid backups to 192. To the north, widen the Lee Rd. Bridge. Replace the 436 Bridge. Widen the 434 Bridge. Then widen the St. John's Bridge. Then, get I-4 to 8 lanes all the way into Deltona. You think there will still be backups then? I don't think so. Cutting off lanes within the metro is the worst idea that FDOT could've ever come up with. Just look at the Turnpike and 408 where they've widened it and see what a success those two highways are now. That being said, we still need commuter rail. Just like Chicago, and every other major city.

^^ no, I actually agree with you two, after assessing the track record of some of these projects. Pointe Orlando has improved greatly from what it was before. Rosen was actually supposed to make improvements to cater to peds like you're saying, but not sure about the schedule of those improvements to the Centre and Plaza. I think the story of Orlando is a bunch of self contained projects, kind of closed in the their surroundings, the more I think about it. But I think that now, the gears are finally turning with the construction of the Hilton and Peabody, after the slow start that Westin, Pointe, and Vista Cay and Shingle Creek started a couple of years before that. With that project that, what's his name, Watson?, from Georgia, wants to do at OCCC N/S north side of the bldg., that's another step in the right direction I think. If the Great Wheel gets built, I think that will have good ped access as well (or it will need it to make it more appealing to tourists)...

^^ right up to the time of the proposal for the Hilton, there was so much backlash for the $$$ spent on the OCCC N/S Bldg. it was ridiculous. The County's excuse was the lack of convention-class rooms adjacent to the complex which hurt the center in head to head competition for certain shows. The County's No.1 focus was more rooms and fast, not whether it was ped friendly to passersby on I-Drive sidewalks. It caters directly to the N/S Bldg., and has a skywalk to foster that. That's pretty much it. In Chicago, where I happen to be from BTW, noone walks where Mich Ave hits LSD; its a ped deathtrap even though highrise condos abut the west side of the street. THere's other parts of DT where peds avoid it like the plaque for the very same reasons. On I-Drive, you can't have pedestrians walking down the I-Drive sidewalk and crossing the off ramp from 528 WB which is a loop that creates another lane that eventually ends to the west of the N/S Bldg. They'll get killed. Tourists drive like idiots b/c they don't know where they're going usually. anyway, to make a long story short, and its too late for that now, the Hilton is the Hilton. For better or worse, that's fine; The Peabody is a totally different story altogether, save for the parking deck abutting Universal by Point Orlando- I'll never understand that one. I don't know, maybe you are right about this...

^^ you were in the Stirling Sotheby's space, I take it... I frequently watch shuttle launches from there (when they let me, that is). here's little diddy... go to 10, and go to the South Tower tip by Church and Orange- still U/C-- you can see everything.

^^ that's right; and I think Underground is hosting the promotion for that; there's a bunch of Red Bull table tops being set up this afternoon already out...

like I said in prior posts, I fully support rail, Sunrail, LRT, and any other type of rail. But that doesn't mean we should keep I-4 narrow b/c "the wider it gets the more people use it." (which is the war cry of anti-sprawlers. that's it; nothing more. As long as I-4 is 10 lanes through downtown (like the 408 widening BTW), and 8 lanes up and over the St. Johns River Bridge to the east, and 192 to the west, then there's no problem. But the darn thing keeps cutting off lanes at different points which slows traffic down. If the year 2000 plan accounts for the lanes I'm talking about above, then it will be ok. But b/c FDOT are a bunch of jackasses when it comes to road widening projects, they've got everyone rallying around this anti-wide road/anti-sprawl stance which clouds the issue. I-4 is now 6 lanes from Tampa to Orlando nonstop. What a relief that extra couple of lanes has given commuters and travelers alike- that's what I'm talking about. I-4 connects I-75 to I-95, no matter how much sprawl is in Orlando metro, there are going to be thousands of travelers per day using that road regardless. Widening has to account for that. And this has nothing to do with keeping development more dense or implementing CRT or LRT within an urban area. ^^ I don't understand the 'paving at the expense of places that are close in grid-wise' thing;

^^ you mean a Holiday Inn Express.... LOL! definitely not what the casino hotels do to get you to go in... it's odd... the entrance faces the parking deck to the south about a block east of I-Drive; it doesn't even face the OCCC. it is quite odd. Peabody works, though. so does the Rosen Plaza and Rosen Centre. But remember, that part of I-Drive where the Hilton is located is very close to the 528 ramp and overpass; hardly a place where pedestrians should be at anyways. It's extremely congested as well. it's the inbetween no-man's land zone between the OCCC and Sea World; not really much of a loss to pedestrian-friendlydom if you will. Across the street is a different story altogether; but on the east side of I-Drive, there's really nothing there, and I think it's b/c of the ramps to 528. It still doesn't explain why the lobby doesn't face the OCCC to the north, though.

true, but remembering that 9-11 killed off and delayed most of the OCCC hotel projects, and slowed down the convention industry a bit, we are lucky that the Championsgate people collaborated with Hilton for this hotel. Need I even mention the Peabody debacle and the fact that, the mere fact that the expansion is in progress is a miracle- more so than 55W getting built... it really is. Also, the mega-Hyatt proposal got chopped b/c of funding and eventually cancelled b/c of financing- most recently. If there is a new deal in the works, I'm not familiar with it. So, that's where I'm coming from when I say I'll take what I can get, b/c the alternative could very well be no hotel at all. ANother example: Village of Imagine... the Westin looks so out of place with the rest of the development canceled.

^^ that party, bulldogger, at the plaza was on the PH of the South Tower, right, b/c 55W blocks the North Tower view of the Arena... ^^ as for the size, the arena is very tall. the thing so looks like it's near the footprint of the Citrus Bowl. I was at Citrus Club yesterday marveling at its grandeur. It's so worth the bank. I can't wait for it to be incorporated into the Church St. corridor.

I take it that's the convention portion of the Hilton. As far as it being a letdown, my main focus is the 1,400+ hotel rooms that will help the OCCC stay competative. Newer hotel projects will see this and follow suit. I think Peabody is doing a better job of wall-ing off I-Drive with their expansion. Hilron is too recessed, I agree, but, I'll take what we can get as they say. 1,400 rooms is huge by Florida standards.

^^ best cinema I've been in; interior design, etc. at the tips of the bldg layout- in the shape of a "u" with the tips being at the far ends of the Plaza N & S towers, there's a full service bar-- each mirrors the other. that's awesome. great buildout; saw Star Trek there last night. it was a good experience. and I've noticed people using the theatre regularly. On Sat. night, they told me that the parking deck was full up to 1/2 of the 7th level. Granted, the Magic played on Sat. night; but it was a great crowd nevertheless. what they need to do is continue doing the little things that make downtown the attraction regardless of event nights...

what is that?

I was at the event. I went to the special showings inside around 8pm. they televised the Magic game from one of the screens that Dyer was at as well. That's where I saw the Magic lose to the Cavs, and where I temporarily lost my cell phone. I did not see the VIP room, though.

you're right. the realignment begins south of that interchange... but that is a sweet road, 414 that is...

OMG, you are so right! I rode 414 for the first time on Saturday. it is mostly elevated I noticed... I mean, it's way up there by the treetops like you mentioned. you can totally see downtown from it, and this really large greenhouse type of development closer to Apopka just south of the expressway... I wonder if that's a UF facility or a private thing... 414 is incomplete where it hits 429 though. I think 414 WB to 429 north has a direct ramp, but to 429 south, you go right up to the big wall (future overpass hill), make a left, and then catch the SB ramp a little ways down. coming 429 SB to 414 EB, I don't know what kind of ramp is operational, or if you have to do the whole exit and make a left turn thing... all I know, is that once the Wekiva Pkwy is built, this junction will be another large interchange with flyovers galore, and the spur that currently goes to 441 from that point will be relagated to just an auxillliary feeder highway. great road, though. nice interchange at 441 and it's 6 lanes already. I was surprised.

^^ Amy Smart is a hottay... that explains the posters at the cinema. I used the elevators to the theatre level and rode the escalators several times before they shut them down again and barricaded them. I'm going to the event tomorrow night... it looks really nice on the inside. but there is 2 years worth of construction dust caked on the fllor and escalators. The Plaza sign is fully up with the ornamentation flanking it. they were placing movie posters in the marquis' earlier. its a beautiful thing...

^^ ... like at the Plaza...

wow, I forgot there were that close to opening... Ben isa great guy... I agree, the NYPD space is so much better now that they opened it up a bit leading into the Underground space... the coolest thing about Underground is where his office is...

^^ have, shmav... I hear ya... all I'm saying it that transportation is paramount, period, and if sprawl is a consequence to it then so be it. I'm not saying people want it; all I'm saying is that if people don't want it, then people shouldn't advocate halting roads from being built or improved.

^^ if nobody wants sprawl, then have the State or Fed buy up the land and make it a conservation area, or have the County zone it so it can't be developed. But the answer is not having a metro with backwards-ass roads (forgive my french). 436 was widened all the way to the 441 intersection, which later became an interchange, which is light years ahead of where it was 10 years ago (in Apopka). 441 hasn't been touched in 40+ years from Apopka down to 50. That needs to be widened and/or improved with better sewer/sidewalk/ traffic signaling. That being said, 414 has to be extended to 429, which it is/was. 429 has to hook up to local roads more often to make sense; it can't just be a 441 south to Tampa shortcut; Disney even built Western Way to give another access point to their property. So now, 429 connects 441, 414, back road to Silver Star in WG, 408, 50, Western Way, 192, and I-4, as the major cross streets/highways. It's about access and transportation. You can't justify stifling transportation networks just b/c you want to avoid sprawl. I don't agree with that age old argument of keeping roads narrow to curtail new traffic, and that's coming from someone with an MAURP. If we would've done that with I-4 at the St. John's River, I-d hate to think back to driving into Orlando from Volusia on a 2 lane highway, a narrow shoulder-less bridge, and 2 lanes all the way to 434 exit in Longwood. THat's a reality I don't want to be in. I say built the roads that need to be built and fix the roads that need to be fixed; but don't neglect roads and new road corridors b/c you want to curtail new traffic and development. that's crazy.

^^ I say it's all about access. When they extended Hiawassee north to Piedmont-Wekiva Rd., that was huge, b/c you didn't have to rely on 441 anymore. Then, the 429 opened. Now, 414 is extending out to 429, which is huge for the bypass issue. There already is development out there, just like when they extended 414 from Forrest City Rd. to 441, there was already development along Rose and Bear Lk. etc... this will be huge in getting traffic off of 441 in Apopka, and it will put more cars and trucks on the toll road and bring in revenue... this makes total sense for NW Orange. it is so perfect. now, you have a complete road from 429/441 past Apopka coming in all the way to I-4 and 17/92. 414 has now been fully realized. too bad it couldn't go all the way to 436.