2inthePink

Dubone, I hope you are right and the it helps property values here at the Arlington and the South End as a whole. Not really sure what the consequences of City Council completely ignoring a plan they approved only 3 years ago. I hope this does not discourage development or personal investment in property where plans are in effect to create future vision. I hope Harris moves forward with a quality project.

My guess is that about 100 out of the 113 residential units are currently occupied.

It is my understanding that the city attorney will not allow that. It seems the city attorney is not very coopearitve in this regard.

FYI 70% of all unit owners at the Arlington signed the protest petition. (Anyone who ever belonged to an HOA should be amazed by that %.) The HOA board did support it and continues to support the protest completely.

I feel most, including the reporter of the front page Observer article has got the issue pushed into just the view. This editorial from Sundays paper has more of what I feel is the real issue. http://www.charlotte.com/opinion/story/710794.html If you really want to be informed please see the city's SOUTH END TRANSIT AREA PLAN. http://cmsmondo.co.mecklenburg.nc.us/cgi-b...ICTBASED+SOUTHS+# On page vi of the introduction its states: "The South End Transit Station Plan will be used as: 1. The governing land use policy document for the South End area;" (Their bold not mine) Page 57: "HEIGHT LIMITATIONS: Map 15 shows maximum allowable building heights for the area within the plan boundaries based on height regulations from TODD Zoning. The tallest portions of buildings allowed in the South End PED area will be 120'. The maximum heights allowed will step down closer to single family residential zoning." The comments about sugar mt are actually very on point. After the Arlington was built, the new south end plan was put together to stop it from happening again, just as what happened at Sugar Top. Some points about the rendering. Harris has been quick to say they are not actual renderings. They are only to show general mass. They are showing the Arlington high and their buildings low. They also got a new definition of height I had never heard. Now the 250' height is to the top of the top floor. They can have any access and mechanical on top. Just for reference at the Arlington its about 30'. I always thought it was to the top point on the structure. Evidently not true anymore. Everyone on here is entitled to their opinion. I know many hate this building and from what I've seen here its residents as well. The real issue here is can the common person trust the city? They laid out a plan (by the way, this plan is what I considered the "Church or Chicago Waterfront" under my view) and now they want to change it at the request of a major developer. Please remember not just 10% or 20% variance but close to Two and half times. They have also steered this through the planning department with the help of a reecently hired ex employee of the department who probably wrote the South End Transit Station Area Plan. Just put the view issue aside and look at what's underneath. Then just don't condone this plan because you don't like the Arlington. Look at what going on behind this. Think of what effects it could have on the you or the city as whole in the future, if all city plans were treated like this? One last note: The whole project will be on one large parking deck shared by all 3 buildings. The buildings would be separate entities and Mr Harris has stated its "highly unlikely" that all 3 would go up at the same time. This would leave a stub for who knows how long. Does Charlotte need another concrete stub??

Can anyone tell me what ,if any weight, the published "South End Transit Station Plan" has. The document says on page vi of the executive summery that it is "The Governing land use policy document for the South End area." (the bolding is in the document) http://www.charmeck.org/NR/rdonlyres/eq3jj...al08222005x.pdf On page 57 has a section reading: "HEIGHT LIMITATIONS: Map 15 shows maximum allowable building heights for area within the plan boundaries based on the height regulations for TOD zoning. The tallest portions of buildings allowed in the South End PED area will be 120'. The maximum heights allowed will step down closer to single family residential zoning." One council member I talked with said this was "just a recommendation." I for one and all Realtors I spoke with who read it, thought it was just as stated "The Governing land use policy document for the South End area." If thats not true what is it??????

Have you seen the land plan? If you did, you would see that a solid wall of 3 close up builidngs would replace the whole donwtown skyline.

Yes, there is a 25% premium for city side views. And if the project is build to current plans the views south would have a significantly better view. As far as moving, i would have a moral obligation to tell prospective buyers about the situation. I could not sleep at night knowing I screwed someone like that. I think there is a legal obligation as well.

Good news. I have been contacted by Land Design, the firm working on the layout. We have set up a meeting for them, the architects, and Harris to come and look at what the effect would be here at the Arlington. I see this as a great opportunity to work out a compromise. I hope a lawsuit will not be necessary. No one really wins in the end in that. Altrvr I thought we were not over extended in our mortgages. We put a good amount down and they had some decent appreciation. If they build what is on the plan currently, I could see a 20 to 35% decrease in values, maybe more. Could put us upside down or at the very least wipe out a good deal of our equity. Very scary for us.

Southsider We all did think about loosing the views before purchasing. Acording to the sources published by the city there was not much chance of this happening next door at Simpsons. All places that were curenty zoned to uptown were carfully taken into consideration. All could potentlly inhibit our view. Very acceptable. Most would problalby make it better. None except for Simpsons and only in a wost case senerio, could it be complely blocked. But the city had published plans for the area that said they did not want that to happen. 120" would be all that was allowed. Well they are proposing not only to go against the 3 plans but in such a large scale way that I could not really imagane just 2 or 3 years ago. Change happens, its rarly 100% change and then only when it does not hurt others. Please try to look at our uniqe perspecive.

altrvr - Thanks for considering both sides and the greater issues at hand. I really don't think that the views are truly the issue here as much the pure loss in value. Its just the loss views in this case would be the cause of the huge loss of value. Once again, if it were not for the 3 publicly published polices we would not have much of basis here. Not one, but 3. Can you just completely ignore them? If you do, why are we spending money on them and what is their purpose?

First, please, please, don't confuse the owners at The Arlington with the developer. I know allot of people are not happy with how this building came about. Please don't punish the current owners for problems they had nothing to do with. The point about the real estate agents was just to show that the plans were common knowledge among the public and within the real estate community. I did not believe anyone, I researched and read it for myself. But, usually when rezoning is done, they (zoning and city council) are supposed to consider the impact to surrounding properties. To me its just too much. I belive the impact on values of the proposed changes are in the millions total. You can do this almost any where in the South End and not have 10 percent of the impact you will have on this one single property. They are not just asking for a small variance, they are talking about a 100% increase in height. This will not slightly obstruct, it will completely block 100% of our views of up town and to the East. Be aware Harris says "the renderings on their site are not accurate." They showed us a site layout and gave us the proposed height of each building. If you go by this, you can fully recognize the impact. This should be posted soon on the zoning site. If its so inevitable, why are the properties that are zoned uptown only getting around 10 to 12 stories at best? See proposals for uptown cabaret site, Overstock market and others in the area. Why here, where its not zoned? We have not run out of Uptown zoning and not even close. The 3 publicly stated and published plans led allot of people to invest allot of money and now a short time later they propose not to just change the plan but, do a 180 turn on the plan. This is OK by me, if large numbers of people are not significantly hurt. I also think that the current proposal is not god for the neighborhood as a whole in the way it relates to the street and rail line. I was not real crazy about the how close they proposed the apartment tower to the tracks. The plans call for a 230' tall apartment building along the tracks. The layout had the BACK of the building even with the front of The Arlington. Has any one on this thread walked this area and envisioned the proposed impact? The layout I saw included moving the sidewalk CLOSER to the tracks with the building starting some 15' away about the same distance as the apartments on the other side. Too close. I was under the impression the the light rail walk ways were supposed make a kind of vertical park connection from downtown to scalybark station. The proposal, as is, will give it the felling of a back alleyway. Not very inviting to me. After saying all this, the architects at LS3p seemed to be interested in our issues, the representatives of Harris Development, not so much. They say they will take our feedback and try to work it into the plan. I hope so. Most here are willing to compromise by losing some views just not all. I do think this project could be great for everyone if done right. We need to see some compromise from Harris. I'm still hopeful this will come. But I am also a realest. I really have no interest in 100 years from now. My wife and I are working hard, so in 10 or so years we can down size to considerabley smaller unit here at The Arlington. We look forward to our retirement here and enjoying the urban life. Should be out of here and off the earth in 30 or so years. Not really concerned about values rebounding in 100 years. I am worried my I will loose all the money we put in here and have to leave and put off retirement permanently. I am a little disapointed in all the support for the devloper and not much for The Arlington Homowners.

Sorry about the sarcasm. Please just don't tell me I should be delighted with this project. My point was that what this project brings to the area is not very attractive to the curent residents. The point about the green areas was not wanting all concrete. I went to the meeting last night and I believe they are looking for 15' from the tracks and 230" straight up sheer wall. Anybody who uses this area care to comment on what that would be like? The point about all the parcels near here being developed is good. All the projects except this one are less than 120' even though many are zoned for uptown. Why this site? None of the others have potential to do harm to others property values. Only this one. Never wanted to brag about anything only was defending the building against criticism. I love it here. The point about units not selling acutally proves my position. This is the FACTS: all but one unit sold out quickly that were above 120' and had a city view. The only units not selling are facing south. That show what the view is worth. Sorry I come across so mad but put your selves in me and wife's shoe's. We stand to loose in my opinion serious value if this goes through as currently planned. But in the end we stand to loose a good bit of our life saving. I went to the meeting last night and hopefully they will take some of the Arlington's concerns and move things around a bit. As of now we are completely 100% blocked in the direction of downtown. I will wait and see. What made us think that it could not be built here? The Charlotte Mecklenburg Zoning Board publicly stating that after the Arlington was built they were not going to rezone anything outside the inner-belt as uptown. Also the South End Plan and the TOD plan. This is still the South End, the north end of it but still in the South End District. This was not in the plan. This is why almost all Realtors showing the building said that site would not be built to over 120'. And this is why we expected a dense 120' high development to be done on that property. I thought that all the public planning would be acutally used.

nibbletodell I am absolutely delighted to have my view turn from the whole downtown skyline to looking directly at the backs of a 230" tall building and two 160' ones just 60' to 100' from my windows! I'm super excited to see my property values go down to the point I could be upside-down in my mortgage. Woo Hoo! I get a hotel and office and small apartments and that will bring lots of traffic congestion to my block, wow wee cant wait. Wait there more, the nice walk along the tracks will now be a cavern with 230" wall straight up on one side 15" from the tracks and a solid wall of 4 stories on the other side. Just a nice clastophobic 50' between them. Grass, open areas, that for sissies. Give my that good old concrete. Oh I forgot the spa to service the hotel. Hmm already have one in the building. So if I get this right the new restaurant will be the only positive thing for us here at the Arlington. Wow my choices go from 10 to 11 restaurants within walking distance. We purchased here in the South End because it was not as nice as downtown, but we hoped that with some hard work we could ruin it and make it an extension of downtown. Happy Days! Delighted, simply delighted!

Dubone..I have been looking at this from many angles. Literately and figuratively. I agree it would be best for all if the tallest (over 120') we placed on the front half (S. Blvd side) of the property. Harris and would get the density they desire ,The Arlington would retain a good bit of the current views and the sidewalk at the tracks would not get closed in as much.

First and foremost, I really do appreciate all input on this thread. As far as the Arlington not being sold out, 95% of units facing downtown have sold, most a long time ago. Resales on that side are doing pretty well. Less than 12% of residential units are unsold. Jim Gross and his partner have put a pretty high value on them. He seems to think that holding on to them is a better investment than selling them at market value. I am not positive but I belive that this property was zoned UMUD when the Arlington was proposed. Anyone know for sure? My real issues is that the Simpson property was destined for TOD-M and it was published and expected. This was the plan. People invested based on that plan. I understand that we need more density but, with some sort of control. TOD-M provides for that density. I hear the comments that we need more density in this area. So did city planners when they came up with the TOD-M zoning not too long ago. Is 120' not enough? They thought so. Its fine to change if it does not have real demonstratable effect on the value of others. Counter to some thought, I belive this is easily documentable in this case. I belive a lot of the benefits that have been brought up are real. Its the Robin Hood theory here. Do we want government that can take from one and give to another just because they can. If its given to you it sound pretty good. If its taken from you, how would you feel? If you feel this is right, move to Venezuela. Hugo Chavez needs more good commies. Oops, sorry got a little carried away here. Also think about walking down the tracks. You will feel like you are in a tunnel passing this thing. I'm all for this project. I think its fantastic, if its built under the the very newly rezoned heights. No doubt a grocery would be awesome! If they go over 120' they should just through the zoning system out. Its not worth the paper its written on. (or the disk space its stored on)

dubone.. B2 has a really small height something like 30" I think. That's one reason why they rezoned to TOD-M recently with a cap of 120'. They would need something with downtown in it to get above 120" without a variance. They say they will ask for the height restriction to be waived and go to 200'. Charlotte Native 80% of what you have pointed out would be blocked out with the current rendering. 75% of our new view would be of 2 buildings about 100' away. I hope the new plan is better.

As far as where to build tall buildings outside the loop I think its obvious. 1. Anywhere it is currently zoned. There are many parcels near here. 2. Where it needs rezoning, do it where it does not impinge on others property values. 3. Where it does not go against publicly published plans. Also abut the sidewalks, there is 100 times the foot traffic using the sidewalk at the Light Rail side than the street side. I would think that needs some consideration as well.

I belive the process was as you have stated for South Haus. But it was in fact a variance they were asking for not rezoning. I belive it went to city council with a recommendation from the zoning commission to deny. City council approved it anyway. Kind of scary huh? If I remember it was about 30% higher over zoning. Anyone know exactly?

Harris indicated they are in the process of asking for a "variance" on the height restriction. They want to go to 200" If I am right, the developers got one for the south haus property. (Over the objection of the zoning committee, if I remember correctly.) If they moved the tall parts of the project to the South Blvd side it would do a great deal less damage. Remember we are not just talking about views here, we are talking about value. This is the real issue. If the city grants them a variance ,they will be increasing the value of the Simpson property at the expense of some owners at the Arlington. This is where I believe legal precedent has been set in other cities. If this wasn't in the Southend Plan for so long I don't think this would be an issue. We made buying decisions based on publicly published plans. We also did not object to the rezoning to TOD-M because it fit with that plan and did have a height restriction. If they move the height they want to the South blvd side they would greatly reduce the damage to others and still get the density they desire. I am hoping for this.

Hi All, As you can tell the Simpson's property issue is a quite a sensitive subject for me. After reflecting, I decided the best thing to do was to contact Harris and start a dialog. I have spoken with Matt at Harris Development Group and had a decent conversation with him about the concerns of the Arlington Owners. A Few of things came out in the conversation. 1. The rendering shown was a fist effort and they are working on a new plan that may or may not have the same effects on us.(could be better or worse) 2. They could be looking as high as 200". 3. They are in the process of applying for a variance on the the height without rezoning. I must say that the tone of the conversation was quite good. He said he would like to send us the new rending as soon as it is finished and we would be open to meeting to discus changes that would mitigate damages to us. Hopefully this is in good faith. This is a good first step. I am cautiously optimistic we will not be left in shadows.

cltcardfan - I am shouting to all residents of the Southend and Dilworth and anyone who thinks that zoning is done for a reason. Are we going to change zoning on a weekly basis? If you have enough money and don't like whats there, what the heck, just change it. If its this flexible, why spend tax dollars on it all? What is its purpose? Who are you shouting to?

Charlotte_native - your situation is much different than ours here. All the properties you listed were zoned for downtown and anyone could reasonably have expected these buildings because of the zoning. Not so here in the Southend. This most important property to us, Simpson's, was zoned B2 with the reasonable expectation that it would be rezoned to TOD-M because of the Southend plan. Making the jump to downtown was far beyond a reasonable expectation.

Zoning is exactly my point! I purchased here at the Arlington based on the zoning in the surrounding area. At the time the Simpson property was Zoned B2. We all new that TOD-M would be coming and no one that I know of objected. It would have to be rezoned to some sort of Downtown for it to go above 120'. This is The Southend not Downtown! This would set dangerous president . How would you protect Dilworth if The Southend becomes Downtown? There is still plenty of property to be developed that is currently zoned Downtown. Some of it is south of 277 but east of the light rail tracks. So saying that downtown needs room to expand is not valid. The values of my units here were based on Zoning protecting the view with a premium placed on properties above the 10th floor. Rezoning to Downtown would inflict major devaluation on allot of property here. Probably in the $1,000,000 range. I know that the buyers at Factory South got taken advantage of. All neighbors were not happy about such a large building being placed here. Zoning at the time did not prevent it. So something was done about it. All zoning was updated and with a cap of 120" outside of Downtown. After this was done and the building was getting built, I made my decision to purchase here. (In a blue building, by the way) My decision was based on Zoning protecting my investment. I know this will be a tough battle as Harris is powerful long time Charlotte developer. Charlotte has always been a development whore. If Harris does apply for rezoning to downtown it will be a test of just how bad is it.

The view equates to Value. This project would have a major effect on the value of my property and all others in the Arlington facing downtown.