Libertarian

You probably are right about them just looking for something to talk about. Unfortunately they are a powerful voice, they are a nationally syndicated radio show that is based in GR. I just wish critics could experience firsthand how truly great a mass transit plan like the one we have been talking about actually is. I mean, when the city came back from their field trip they were enthralled with the idea, at least that was my impression. It seems that some of the momentum since they came back has faded with the GR Press, FBHW, and others’ misrepresentation. I know I am preaching to the choir!

Free Beer and Hot Wings brought up the Paul Moore letter today. Of course they lambasted. They made some good points, I just disagreed with their conclusion on streetcars. The reason I am bringing this up is because I am tired of people like the Paul Moore’s of this world who may have intentions in line with a lot of the UPers, but end up only hurting our cause with these types of letters where opponents can pounce on his line of thinking. I mean, I agree you cannot compare streetcars(he used the word “trolleys” instead of “streetcars” or better yet “fixed-guide-way-system” for God’s sake! Holly misrepresentation!) and the Devos Center. At the same time we cannot try to make the general public believe that a comprehensive mass transit plan will replace cars and at a better cost. In my opinion, we have to stay away from these kinds of comparisons and site examples like Tampa, Little Rock, or Portland. That is a good comparison. Don’t you think? Again, I agree with where P. Moore was going, I just disagree with how he got there. This just really proves that WE need to start framing this debate instead of opponents to this type of system or worse yet people who agree with us but end up giving critics more firepower. A good place to start would be to get rid of the word “trolley” ASAP!

Can’t say that I am active at all in the libertarian party, the name is more of a statement or rally cry against all the garbage in D.C. right now. Or even our own state capital. I do agree with stopping the drug war or having all costs of society being transparent and accounted for. I am tired, as I have said, of subsidizing metro Detroiters in their commute to work. Think about L.A. and their miles and miles of freeways that are all paid for by you and me. We will never use them. Freeways are not free, but many people use them everyday at an astronomically low cost compared to what the government gives them to make them work. Or what about the hundred million $ plus bridge to nowhere in Alaska that was the result of pork barrel spending? It is pretty gross. This isn’t a thread for this and I apologize, but I just wanted you to know I don’t take any responsibility for what Erwin says in that post. Interesting read though, gotta love subjective accounts that we all know are probably wrong

Not trying to be argumentative, too much, just looking at this from all angles. I would tend to believe that a full 1% levied on car sales and appliance sales would create a maelstrom among various groups, not to mention one of the Devos’ who I believe owns Fox. I do agree that a sales tax in some form would be a great start. What do you think about a .75% sales tax on most things, save for big ticket items, and 1% property tax on the areas that will realize the most gain from our transportation dreams?

I just saw this post of yours and I agree.

I still feel we are in disagreement, GRD. I am proposing the use of existing rail lines, much like the proposed Howell line. I could be wrong, but yours seems to lay new track. I feel that $1 billion is just too much at this juncture in the game. Maybe a combo of both. Streetcars with their own track are a must and they seem relatively inexpensive vis a vis a light rail line that were to run on its own tracks out to Comstock. If we can, as UPers, come to agreement on some actual costs and a firm route plan then I believe that we need to form a “coalition.” While I was in college I worked at the state capitol and you would not believe the issues that actually got somewhere because people started these “coalitions.” I see our path, if we can come to a firm agreement on the particulars, much easier than the Kansas City gentleman because the world was against him--or so it seemed. In our case it seems that many influential people in our community are already embracing this idea somewhat. Just look at the Portland trip, for example. By creating our own “coalition” outside of the Rapid/city we can state our own case and actually be heard. I think, if it is cohesive enough, we can get the attention of the people we really need to get on board. We would need to lay, no pun intended, the initial ground work for our “smart transit coalition.” This would include generating a cohesive message, contacting the media and sending out a press release, and then following up with whomever is willing to listen. It may sound complicated, but when I was interning for a public relations firm several years ago I saw the formation of these coalitions in the matter of several hours. Some were successful and some were not. The hard part is staying on message and really following through with whatever issue one is advocating. But, again, you really would be surprised at how easy it is to form something like this and alert the media of your intentions; the local media is always looking for stories. How often have you seen a two car pile-up make the nightly news? One caveat though, if one were to rush too fast into something like this, without being prepared, you run the risk of being passed up for dead even before you start. Oops, was busy writing my last post.

Hey, if it only costs in the neighborhood of 2.4 million for the service on the Howell line this does seem pretty feasible. http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007702110610 I am sure many have seen the above link, but it is interesting nonetheless. For less than $100 million(maybe even far less) we could really put ourselves on the map… the UrbanRail.Net map that isJ But, it still seems that on the Comstock route there would be completely new rail lines added, which of course would increase my guesstimate materially. On another note, I was at http://www.musiccitystar.org/eqimages.html , and it was pretty neat seeing the happy commuters enjoy their ride on the train. And finally, for those of you with a NYT Select login, here is an interesting article http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.htm...DAB0994DE404482 . I could only see it now, enjoying a round with fellow UPers as we ride out to see the Whitecaps play or on the way home from a long day at work. Okay, well maybe not, but the thought is pretty funny. Too bad they are thinking of cancelling it on the LIRR, seems pretty popular.

I like this proposal for the north end, especially because it ends in Comstock Park.

I could go for, and I would assume many more people as well, a rail corridor that would be similar to the Howell/Detroit setup. The Nashville example that you have cited is another great example, but with both instances we really don’t have much data as to whether they are successful. I really believe we need to use existing infrastructure. In addition, we should stay away from park and rides in areas that would have overzealous “developers” licking their chops waiting to profit on the backs of taxpayers. Don’t get me wrong I believe truly great communities have fixed guide way systems, what ever that may entail. Just like you said, people will only make investments in areas if they see tangible evidence that one of their main sources of transportation is going to be around for awhile. My suggestions for a 2025 vision to shoot for are below. This thread moves so fast that sometimes it is hard to keep up, so if I cover something that has been addressed I apologize in advance. Also, I know that sharing rail rights, if tracks need upgrading, et. al. have been discussed in some detail, so my suggestions may be somewhat repetitive. In light of Nashville and the Howell/Detroit line: First priority would be to turn m-6 into a toll road. I am really tired of “free rides” on the “freeway.” This is the only expressway in Kent where it would be possible to add tolls because to the best of my knowledge it is not federally funded. 2)Utilize the CSX rail line from the airport to downtown for passenger service (given the willingness of CSX to do so). Park and ride/fly at the airport with stops near the Woodland Mall, Burton Street, Division Street and of course downtown. Visitors would be instantly impressed as well. 3)Utilize the Norfolk Southern line from Cutlerville to downtown with several stops along the way. Park and ride at Cutlerville 4)Utilize the CSX line from Grandville to downtown with a park and ride in Grandville. 4)I am listing streetcars last, but they can fall anywhere in the process. I would like to see a somewhat comprehensive system serving the downtown and adjacent areas. If BRT can help fill the void by reducing cost they should be used. The Whitepine trail and the Allendale lines, in my mind, would be far too expensive and they would not serve enough people to justify their costs. Yes, I have seen the figures being thrown around and I trust Rizzo’s computations, but again I do not think that they could be cost effective. Laying new track seems to always promulgate in the worst ways the fears of critics, i.e. costs. The best part, at least for me a Libertarian, is that you don’t need to have the government tell people where they can and cannot live/commute from. This is achieved through subtle incentives such as keeping the park and rides, for the most part, inside the man/woman-made growth boundaries that are the expressways ringing the city. I believe that this is also a cost-effective plan because you don’t have to lay rail lines. The infrastructure is already there.

I do agree that the current proposed route is madness. A straight shot up and down division would be ideal. Obviously more debate and community input is needed on the route. I still believe that communter rail is just that, though, useful for commuters. It does not add any vibrancy/density to the inner core and only gives incentive to move further away. When 5:00 rolls around it would be back to Sparta, just like it is now. For instance, if there is a park and ride in Coopersville, then Ravenna probably becomes even more viable as a bedroom community. What goes along with that is increased demand on the greater public to provide services to those communities than what is already being provided. What those three cities, which you have mentioned, all have in common is that their commuter lines already connect (Portland, Minneapolis) to legitimate international airports. Denver will supposedly be adding a connection to their airport by 2016. Those three cities are also international tourist destinations save for Minneapolis. But Minn. still has a much greater draw than say Grand Rapids. Those are major differences that may not appear so, but in fact they really are. Tourist love easy transportation, at least I do. Most of the areas that their commuter/light rail lines serve are areas that are by and large already built up and will not fuel mass development of greenfields. Park and rides in Coopersville, Allendale, or even in Rockford will no doubt do that. You even mentioned, and I agree completely, that our beloved, so called developers(that is a debatable term in this instance), will be more than happy to build out from the park and rides. It is my opinion that the orchards/farms by Coopersville are some of the most scenic areas in Kent county. They are a true asset. I would hate to see them tore up. And, again, it is the taxpayer who is footing the bill on the negative externalities that would come with this type of system in our area. Obviously I am not going to persuade you GRD, but I believe that our goals our the same, it is our means to that end which is different. We both want a vibrant urban core. I have read your posts and admired your photos for over a year so I am somewhat sure we can agree on this. I just believe we need everyone to get behind a system that actually builds up downtown and the adjacent areas, instead of developing an area like Coopersville or beyond.

I completely agree with you on this. It is ridiculous. What I am still having trouble understanding is why we should subsidize the urban sprawl(I am not using this perjoratively, only as a matter of fact) to the north? It seems if you provide rail service to the outlying areas with park/rides you are actually incentivizing this sprawl. For instance, if you run a line to rockford, it would give developers(who are an extremely strong force at the local AND state level) even more impetus to continue building up greenfields with no density what so ever. Residents can live in, say, Pierson and park in rockford on their way to downtown. High profit margins for the developers on this land, while providing big spacious lots. Fantastic. Who then pays for the extra infrastructure such as road widening, police protection et. al. in these outlying communities as the projected 70,000 or so people move to them in the next few years? We do as a state and mostly as a country subsidize this outward growth with publicly funded “freeways.” Isn’t that enough? Unforturnately(sorry for those who may live in outlying areas) I could care less how long it takes to get downtown from Rockford or Coopersville. Lastly, this causes an erosion in the tax base of Grand Rapids. Wouldn’t everyone want to live out there and take the train to work all paid for by the rest of the populace? Rail to outlying areas would only accelerate the development of rural Kent county that GRD has spoke of already. I think we have a great solution already on the table with the BRT. I realize people are skeptical of this, but it would address the traffic congestion from 28th street to the s-curve. This line would also service Wyoming, which is the second largest municipality in Kent. The best part is is that after several years(or less, who knows) people using park/rides at 48th and 28th would start to see the common sense in possibly moving to a home that is close to stop along the proposed BRT. And of course with the BRTs added throughout the years we can get rid of those parking lots that most of us despise.

I am still trying to figure out if the talk of multiple light rail lines and street car lines is serious or not. Don't get me wrong I would be all for a comprehensive transportation plan, but light rail by 2020 does not seem rational. For instance, Kent county has 671 people per square mile, Salt Lake county has1,219ppsm, and Multnomah county(Portland, OR) has1,518ppsm. That is just a few examples of where rail is succeeding faster than originally thought. We are too spread out and I have rarely seen traffic back-ups on any of the freeways. It takes maybe 15 to 20 minutes to go from Rockford to downtown? Even with the construction a year and a half ago it maybe took 25-30 minutes. Is there really a population boom on the horizon to change that figure by much that would then merit park and rides/light rail? It seems to me that establishing urban growth boundaries, like a Portland, OR, would be the very first step(with many more steps to come) in any march towards light rail. And that would take a sea change in the mind set of most Grand Rapidians, not to mention several years. Don’t get me wrong, if I had to live in the burbs I would love to relax and read the newspaper on my way to work. I just feel the nature of Grand Rapids and the extant transportation system for moving between burbia and downtown is sufficient. I also enjoy the enthusiasim of this thread because I used to live in D.C. and I know the merits of a fine mass transit system, but maybe we should put more effort forth in the way of realizing what really ails Grand Rapids and its potential success.