jas49503
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Posts posted by jas49503
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Then the real discussion would be "what kind of incentive would be required to make them voluntarily relocate?" because obviously you can't force them to leave.
I would think an overly generous offer for thier properties might work although it doesn't make sense for a developer trying to make money. I think the zoning laws would need some sort of revision as well so that they can't just move anywhere but to specific places that would distribute their services throughout the city.
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I agree that the name is horrible but I don't disagree with the desire not to compete with City market. I don't know what the capacity for farmers markets is in grand rapids but it seems that there would be an excessive number if everything was developed as initially planned. I am suprised that they would get rid of all of the food stalls because it would have been nice when they held events. It also would have been nice if they could have replace the farmers market with something else rather than just parking.
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I agree with the article. Swallow pride, rip out the park and put in some angled parking.
I laughed during ArtPrize as there was a nice little sculpture in the middle of the pocket park. It reminded me of this piece at the Public Museum:
bunny = sculpture, people = homeless people.
I think Ted Lott should give himself a high five for forecasting what a terrible idea this was!
Joe
I don't think the park was a bad idea. those people are just going to stand on the street corner. park or no park. his main complaint if I remember correctly was that it took away some developable property. well, I don't think that the area really needs any more developable property right now. the property that is available isn't being used. and for parking, there is a big garage right around the corner. the twenty spots or so that could go in there isn't going to change anything other than give the homeless on the corner something to charge for. i.e. "Give me 5 dollars to watch your car, I'll make sure nobody messes with it."
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File that under DUH!
Goodbye S. Division. It looked like it might have been able to thrive, but now it looks like its going to start slipping back into skid row. And that park was just the gas to pour on the fire.
Seriously, how long can Vertigo or Little Bohemia expect hold on if all of these guys are now closing shop? None of those "galleries" are going to survive either at this rate.
this has been covered before but I don't think that S. Division ever left skid row. until they can convince all the ministries to disperse that area is always going to be a magnet for bums/drug dealers/addicts etc.
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it was in the paper that the artist himself did that.
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I thought there was something like an 18% vacancy rate?
I still think the market for condos could be good if there were more affordable options. Perhaps developers just can't make a profit at lower price points? If that's true, then maybe the land is overpriced.
For the odd-shaped lot in question, I think it's precisely the odd shape that makes redevelopment interesting. A drive-through is not appropriate not because of it causing traffic back-ups, but because it's downtown where that sort of suburban style development ruins the place. (See: parking lots) It's also an important lot as a connecting piece between from Ionia south of Fulton, which is nicely developed, to Monroe Center north of Fulton.
I agree that the police station is a horrific waste space. The new GRAM as well.
(I think the GRAM looks great, but it has problems fitting into the urban environment.)Even 18% looks low based on the number of signs and empty looking storefronts. Also when discussing "dowtown" I would include heartside to at least Cherry. There is a lot there which needs significant redevelopment. the police station would fit better further north in the area of calder plaza with all the other government buildings.
If you are trying to connect north ionia to south ionia that triangular block would be very important. I don't think that it would be enough though. You would have to have some supporting redevelopement of adjacent blocks. otherwise I don't think that you would have the critical mass needed to support foot traffic and it would be better off as a park. I don't buy the whole "too expensive" argument either. If's not very large and if done right wouldn't require much maintenance. Think native species and no turf with an appropriate use of hardscaping.
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While that's true, and there certainly isn't sufficient demand downtown for much new construction right now, the pro-development view is that more density is required to make downtown a vibrant area. Monroe Center and a couple blocks in either direction from it are exactly where the densest development should go. Not that parks detract from the neighborhood, but there probably more appropriate areas for parks. That said, the biggest challenge to density downtown is not having too many parks, it's having too many parking lots.
It's going to be hard to build any density at that particular location. at least that's in any continuity with downtown. traveling east from the BOB you have a parking lot, parking garage, parking lot, parking lot, police station, park, park, parking lot, parking lot, parking lot, small office building. that takes you all the way to heritage hill. north of the triangular space there are two large parking garages and one office building with nothing in it. I don't think that you're going to get a critical mass of anything, no matter how what type of building you put there to create the kind of density that you want. What would really help is moving the police station. the thing is a monstrosity that effectively cuts downtown in half.
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I don't think anyone was suggesting building on every square inch. And no one is suggesting building something that isn't "needed."
"Green city" does not necessarily = "green spaces" either.
When people start complaining about putting in pocket parks because it takes away from development opportunities, it sure does sound like a suggestion to build on every square inch. Same thing can be said for putting 10-20 story buildings on said potential pocket park sites when it comes to building something that is unneeded. Really what it comes down to is using(reusing) what you all ready have before constructing more buildings. I'm not against construction, just that the argument against more green space being that it takes away from developable land is dumb when you are surrounded by buildings that are ripe for redevelopment.
And you are right about "green city" not equaling "green spaces" but it's the same as saying cars are equal to wheels. they aren't the same but you can't have one without the other. it just doesn't work.
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Isn't there an abundance of greenspace at the Heartside park with a kids area and sprinkler park (or whatever they call them). Seems like that is way under utilized.
Joe
don't confuse green space with a playground. The area doesn't need that seeing that there is what, 3 kids that live within walking distance of heartside park, or either of the proposed pocket parks? What is needed a place for people to eat sit and eat their lunch or add a little something to their walk. It's also great for filtering out environmental pollutants and catching rainwater. too much hardscape is bad for the environment. Were trying to be a 'green city' and people want to build on every square inch wether it's needed or not.
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Downtown needs more businesses and people (buildings).
What downtown needs is to use the buildings it has. what good would another 10 or 20 story building do when they have a bunch of un- or under utilized buildings there now. Grand rapids has a lot less green space than most other major cities in relation to it's size so adding a park would be beneficial. sure there are other parks in the area but if anyones ever been to Savannah they'd see that having several parks in close proximity is actually pretty nice. Development is great but you want to avoid what happened to detroit with the ren cen.
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I've been there 4 or 5 times.
It's a mixed bag.
Their chow mein called "Mr. Lawrence" was great.
The Sezchuan Peanut Noodles were not as great.
The hot-and-sour soupe was fantastic, the rangoons meh.
I've tried it a few times though and they're getting better.
It seems they had the same problem with the electric cheetah. I went there after they first opened and was underwhelmed. they have since figured things out and it's much better. they are probably going through the same learning curve that they went through before.
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I in no way said that redevelopment was a bad thing. I just feel redevelopment can harmoniously occur without forcing them out. It seems to be working out so far in Heartside. Ideally, as you stated, the shelters/soup kitchens would fulfill their goals and they then would no longer be needed. That's what I'd like to see. My biggest beef in this whole debate centers around how some UPers generalize and marginalize an entire group of people. I didn't want to have to bring up my personal connection with this topic, but I feel it now should be said.
I have a very close friend named Jeff that went through hell 4 years back. He was kicked out of his home by his family and ended up on the street. No church in the area (and I'm not kidding when I say that) would help him out because a) he's gay and b) he's positive. He was not a criminal, a drug user, or crazy as some on here would claim. With nowhere to go, he moved into a non profit, non-religious shelter. After leaving the shelter/soup kitchen after a year, he continually goes back to "pay it forward." I went with him recently just to see what those people go through. Since then, I've been helping out whenever I can. He's now working a minimum wage job in the hopes of going back to school. I don't know where he gets his courage or strength, but I admire him for it. He's a success story, one of but a few. If I were to have told him, while he was there, that it was better the shelter close so that the old building next door could be re-add to the tax rolls, I would have been completely in the wrong. Wouldn't you agree?
Sure, it's just one story out of many, but in this great economy we are in, many are going through similar stories and have never been homeless before. Maybe I should ignore the homeless and see your point that a growing tax base would help out the dying city. I just feel that things wouldn't change or improve much in their lives (maybe yours but they'd still be crazy drug users right?) and it would be much easier than having to defend myself here.
This is why these shelters are the problem. You said that your friend was a regular guy, so why did he live in the shelter for a year? Shelters enable this kind of behavior. I could see needing it for a month or two sure, it sounds like he was in a tough spot but by then he should have been able to enter a regular working, contributing to society kind of life. I can tell you my own story about how when I graduated college I moved out my parents house after one week with a couple of hundred dollars and a crap car that never ran right into a 200 dollar a month apartment (actually just a room). I've never looked back. It's great that your friend is "paying it forward" he should because he milked the system for way too long.
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Well, then I'll say it: drug and alcohol addicts have made poor life choices. If that's discrimination then I don't care.
that statement was actually a joke. I agree that people should be responsible for their own poor decisions.
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My concern and point is that, with the goal being the redevelopment of Heartside, we shouldn't just see the homeless shelters or soup kitchens as an obsticale to that redevelopment.
Why not? that's exactly what they are. walking up and down division there are ton's of vacancies. The businesses that are there, with just a couple of exceptions, are not exactly mainstream. I see no problem with severely limiting the services in that location. I think that there should be some redistribution throughout the city with an overall reduction in total services. The aim being to end voluntary homelessness. Shelters/missions/minsitries enable this type of behavior.
On another point, I've had many conversations with homeless people/drug addicts and generally speaking the only response I can get is incomprehensible gibberish or a total lack of conversational focus intermixed with significant tangential thoughts and flights of ideas. Most other homeless can function in society and therefore are homeless by choice. (I"m not referring to the small percentage who are truly down on thier luck and homeless temporarily because they lost their job or had some huge medical expense, etc.)
Of course these people need the most help and should not be ignored because they wont go away until they freeze or starve to death (something I am not condoning) They used to end in large mental hospitals until those were all shuttered. now they end up homeless or in prison. I don't have a good solution other than to spread them around so that regular people who can't handle them don't get too scared off from one particular part of town.
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I don't think the problem is any one homeless shelter. it's the concentration of homeless shelters and outreach programs. I don't think that developers would be turned off by a dozen or so homeless people wandering south division. 10 times that, is what makes it a turn off. Reminds me of the Projects in many larger cities; think Cabrini Green or Robert Taylor homes in Chicago. They were a failed social experiment. Dispersion of "differently advantaged" (I'm not going to say disadvantaged, who is to say that their life choices are lesser than anyone else's life choices. it is discriminatory and wrong) people seems to be the in vogue social experiment de jour. It certainly seems that in this situation that it would help with redevelopment of Division. It also would also enable homeless people in other parts of the city to enjoy the benefits of having a ministry/mission nearby.
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I'm looking at the Art.Downtown flyer now and the old public museum is part of it. It's stop number 3 on the trolley loop.
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I drive by that corner all the time and there has always been a ton of shady looking characters there. it's just that they all hang out in the park now rather than on the street corner. I agree that the shelters and ministries directly contribute to the problem and that redeveloping that part of town will be difficult as long as there are so many homeless/drug addicts milling about.
If you look at the success of a park based on it's utilization by the citizens of a city it's probably the most successful park ever. the thing is jam packed most days.
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how many hotel rooms does grand rapids have? This seems like it may be a issue if 500,000 people come here. Even if you count one person, per day, that still equals roughly 35 k per night. I would assume that many people will stay with friends or family and you can get several people in each hotel room but it seems like there will still be a need for 5-10k rooms.
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So you list a bunch of jobs and that makes it so? I guess I'm lost. Who is going to pay for performance artists? For that matter, who is going to pay for any of these? Again, this will be a huge boon for the city for the 3 weeks, but after that, I'm skeptical. Let's see what's changed come November. I would certainly take this festival over no festival, but I still would have preferred to hear an announcement that involved permanent creation of 100s of jobs. I would rather bring skilled, young people here to work rather than as tourists.
I think that companies would add staff in anticipation of increased revenue or based on jobs that the artists hired them to complete. the amount of money that this should add to the local economy is significant. if 25k people come here from out of town on average, per day and spend 100 dollars (which seems conservative considering the cost of food and lodging) that equals 35 million dollars added to the local economy. certainly a few people could be added to the local workforce for that kind of money.
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I have to admitt that this is an awesome idea. I hope this event becomes a huge hit annually. Although I do feel that DSchoon made a good point: that art sometimes doesn't stay within political boundaries. If the Devos's are going to support this art contest, they had better realize now that it may not always represent what they represent.
do we really know what rick devos' political leanings are. I know that my personal beliefs aren't the same as my grandparents. you can not assume that he has the same beliefs as the people that came before him. I think that the DeVos's realize that when they make such an open art competition that they wouldn't get a bunch of paintings of jesus and puppies. artists by nature are more liberal, anyone over the age of three knows this and would expect the art to represent this, especially when it is going to be a national competition.
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Earth Day isn't Thursday.
I guess your right. I had some bad intel for this one.
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i wonder if it is coincidence that the announcement is on earth day?
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A $300,000 house can also be quite a bargain in Chicago. I don't think you can fairly compare the price in Grand Rapids to Chicago. Of course Chicago is going to cost more.
his condo at the time cost 225-250k for 2 bedrooms/2 bath approx 1200 sq. feet. not that much different from the condos that are going in downtown grand rapids. in fact, probably cheaper by quite a bit. it was directly behind the merchandise mart also, so the location was really pretty good. While I'm not going to argue that chicago is near grand rapids in terms of cost, it is not as far away as you would imagine (for downtown condos, not single family homes)
also, I have to walk about a half mile for my parking at work now, or I have the option of taking a shuttle if I would park in a further out lot and I can tell you that I pretty much wouldn't take another job in a place like that If I had a choice. I consider my time too valuable to spend 15 minutes getting from the parking lot to my work esp. when it only takes about 5 or seven minutes to get from my home to the parking lot. I (and many of my current coworkers, consider it a sign that the employer does not value your time. because of this there are system wide changes and systems (not in parking) that make your job much more difficult and inefficient. at least that could be the perception for potential workers (it is the reality where I work).
A shuttle system could probably be designed that would actually be more efficient considering the size of spectrum but it would have to overcome a lot of negative preconceived notions
You could also consider driving to the hospital when you have a loved one ill dangerous because of the distraction it causes. while some people may be able to focus on the road when they have someone close in the hospital, others may not have such great focus leading to a potentially dangerous situation. In that case something like BRT would be a public safety benefit, similar to laws stopping drunk driving.
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Only $23,000/space? That sounds like a bargain! Where can I buy my own $23,000 parking space in an unattractive, undergound, cave-like structure?
that is a bargin. 10 years ago my dad paid 25,000 dollars for a parking space in chicago. he still had to pay a monthly fee.
his space was also underground and unattractive.
(I think the GRAM looks great, but it has problems fitting into the urban environment.)
Redevelopment along 28th Street
in Grand Rapids
Posted
I think that it has a great chance to be successful as long as it isn't attempted all at once and they stick to their plan. In this case you aren't looking for a single, or even multiple developers to do the whole thing at once. you build some or all of the roads and zone the size buildings that you will allow. it will get built out as the market demand allows. it may take a while but it reminds me of downtown birmingham with old woodward and the "new" woodward as a bypass. I don't think that it will have the kinds of stores that downtown birmingham has but it doesn't need those it just needs a scale that supports pedestrian traffic along with a easy way to access it, which I think the plan does very nicely.