More bad rankings for SC

[vicupstate]

If you read the Greenville News today, you learned...

During the 2nd quarter, SC ranked 50th in job creation, at .07%. FDIC analysts said also that early data from the third quarter suggests "further weakening."

South Carolina's neighboring states fared better in the second quarter: North Carolina, with 1.42 percent Growth, was 24th and Georgia, .50, was 47th.

Clemson is now the 7th most expensive public school in the nation based on in-state tuition. Since 2002, tuition has risen 51.1 % at Clemson and 38.7% at USC. That compares to a national average of 33%.

Adjusted for inflation, state appropriations for operating expenses have fallen 25.7% in the last ten years in SC. That compares to 10.6% and 22.7% increases for NC and GA respectively.

[krazeeboi]

Frankly, I'm surprised that GA ranked 47th.

[vicupstate]

Frankly, I'm surprised that GA ranked 47th.

Me too, although, I have heard Atlanta hasn't been the job juagernaut it use to be. Plus, there are probably a fair number of manufacturing jobs leaving their state too.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

Clemson is now the 7th most expensive public school in the nation based on in-state tuition. Since 2002, tuition has risen 51.1 % at Clemson and 38.7% at USC. That compares to a national average of 33%.

Why would anyone go to Clemson for that price? Its not even rated that well in the national rankings, not well enough to be the 7th most expensive.

[GvilleSC]

Why would anyone go to Clemson for that price? Its not even rated that well in the national rankings, not well enough to be the 7th most expensive.

Because it's one hell of a school . Anyways, if you want a school of some size in the great state of SC, then it comes down to USC and Clemson... and depending on what major you want, that may help you decide, but other than that if you can get into Clemson, why wouldn't you go there? The academic standards are higher- it means a lot more to say "I go to Clemson" rather than "I go to South Carolina." Let's face it, MOST everyone gets into the University of South Carolina... You get what you pay for!

[peaceloveunderstanding]

It has a 69% acceptance rate. South Carolina Columbia, has an acceptance rate of 67%.

[Infinite1]

Why would anyone go to Clemson for that price? Its not even rated that well in the national rankings, not well enough to be the 7th most expensive.

thats based on in-state tuition, so your choices are somewhat limited. There are some programs of study that aren't offered at any other in-state schools

[Spartan]

Why would anyone go to Clemson for that price? Its not even rated that well in the national rankings, not well enough to be the 7th most expensive.

Clemson is beating the drum for a place in the top 20 universities, so why not charge in the top 20 price range too?

[GvilleSC]

It has a 69% acceptance rate. South Carolina Columbia, has an acceptance rate of 67%.

Actually, directly from the horse's mouth, "The percentage of freshmen applicants accepted dropped from 78% to 60% in the past eight years." -www.clemson.edu

USC accepted 67.4 percent last year of the total applicants. from sc.edu

So, I believe you're source is wrong

[Ness]

If you read the Greenville News today, you learned...

During the 2nd quarter, SC ranked 50th in job creation, at .07%. FDIC analysts said also that early data from the third quarter suggests "further weakening."

Jeesh. My present state of residence (SC) ranked 50th, and my former state (OH) ranked 49th. Oh boy.

This is my concern:

**Analysts said declines in service providers, including education and professional services, and losses in manufacturing "continue to constrain growth."**

Manufacturing, no surprise, but professional services, this is a hallmark of emerging and/or great cities.

[intcvlcphlga]

Clemson is beating the drum for a place in the top 20 universities, so why not charge in the top 20 price range too?

Whose ranking places Clemson near the top 20? According to U.S. News and World Report, it is tied for 78th which puts more than 30 other public schools ahead of it. Eight other ACC schools are ranked higher, and it is tied with NC State and Virginia Tech. It is rated higher than U of South Carolina which is tied w/ Florida State at 109.

[Ness]

Whose ranking places Clemson near the top 20? According to U.S. News and World Report, it is tied for 78th which puts more than 30 other public schools ahead of it. Eight other ACC schools are ranked higher, and it is tied with NC State and Virginia Tech. It is rated higher than U of South Carolina which is tied w/ Florida State at 109.

I'm not speaking for anyone, but...many people might consider 34th in doctoral-granting public schools (according to that publication) near the top 20. The school President's goal was to make it into the top 20.

[intcvlcphlga]

I'm not speaking for anyone, but...many people might consider 34th in doctoral-granting public schools (according to that publication) near the top 20. The school President's goal was to make it into the top 20.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Clemson and wish it much success because I think it will elevate the prestige of SC and the ACC. I did, however, understand the posting "Clemson is beating the drum for a place in the top 20 universities" as including public and private universities. Your posting specifically calls out public schools, which as I noted, Clemson comes in somewhere in the low 30s. 34 is closer to 2x 20 than it is to 20, so the school's president has yet to reach his goal.

[GvilleSC]

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Clemson and wish it much success because I think it will elevate the prestige of SC and the ACC. I did, however, understand the posting "Clemson is beating the drum for a place in the top 20 universities" as including public and private universities. Your posting specifically calls out public schools, which as I noted, Clemson comes in somewhere in the low 30s. 34 is closer to 2x 20 than it is to 20, so the school's president has yet to reach his goal.

uhhhh...yea? what are you saying?

[teshadoh]

No matter how good Clemson is - ranking that high for tuition cost is a total shame! I had no idea that was going on, what it sounds like is the state isn't coughing up enough money to fund the school.

As for GA - I didn't know that either, but I suppose it makes sense - it has been slow. And especially when you look at all the large number of layoffs such as Delta & of course - the rural economy isn't doing that good. But I'm still sorry for SC being 50th

Thanks for cheering us up vicupstate

[Spartan]

Whose ranking places Clemson near the top 20? According to U.S. News and World Report, it is tied for 78th which puts more than 30 other public schools ahead of it. Eight other ACC schools are ranked higher, and it is tied with NC State and Virginia Tech. It is rated higher than U of South Carolina which is tied w/ Florida State at 109.

That was more a a sarcastic remark than a factual statement.

I'm not speaking for anyone, but...many people might consider 34th in doctoral-granting public schools (according to that publication) near the top 20. The school President's goal was to make it into the top 20.

I think that Clemson dropped to 36th recently.

[The_sandlapper]

Top 20 is a lofty goal not saying that it isn't possible, just lots of hard work. One thing that all these top 20 institutions have is money, and lots of it whether it's public (Berkley, Chapel Hill) or private (Harvard, Duke, or Stanford). SC just doesn't have deep enough pockets yet. Maybe it would be wiser if the state did shut down some of the smaller schools and invest more in the states larger universities to allow them to seriously compete nationally.

[btoy]

Deleted Post, I didn't read all the news posts and my point had already been stated.

[UrbanSoutherner]

I find it hard to believe that SC is actually 50th in job creation. Anyway, I think the state has two big problems in terms of jobs.

First, there is the continued big losses in manufacturing. That is not going to stop. Even the state's big successes in attracting European companies has not offset all the losses in textiles and other older industries. The reality is that even if a community has a very successful industrial recruitment program, the gains are likely only offsetting the losses.

Second, there is still not a great base of "jobs of the future" so to speak in the state. For example, the company I work for has an employee that lives in Upstate SC and telecommutes (and physically commutes once a week or so) for a job in Atlanta. The other day, I was talking with him, and he was complaining about the lack of good jobs in SC (he is in IT). Even if you have a good job in a field like IT in Columbia, Charleston, or Greenville, the base of other comparable jobs is so small that you may have a hard time finding a replacement job if need be without relocating.

I really hope that ICAR and USC's research campus help develop a better job base for the state's residents in the future. I do expect some good results, but I am skeptical that SC will be able to match the boomtowns in the surroundings states like Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill, Charlotte, and Atlanta. Raleigh was actually smaller than Columbia a half a century ago. But the region did a very smart thing. It started trying to become a technology center before every other city on the planet was trying to do so (the case today). In short, it got a really early start and thus beat most of the others. The planning for the Research Triangle Park (RTP) began in the 1950s and culminated with the RTP's founding in 1959. I have had arguments over on the NC forum where I have argued that NC's progressive image has been overblown, but I will give credit where it is due here--the RTP was very progressive and visionary. Now that region has a technology infrastructure that most other cities lack, and success tends to breed success. Tech companies are more likely to locate where there is already a good cluster of other tech companies and a resulting large pool of talent. The Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill area also benefited from being home to universities that have reputations as being among the best in the South. SC has some wonderful universities (I am an alumnus of one myself), but they do not have the academic or research reputations of UNC-Chapel Hill or Duke.

With "office" cities like Charlotte and Atlanta, you have a big corporate community unlike anything anywhere in SC. And much of this corporate community in both cities was home grown over many decades. For example, Wachovia and BofA both descend from old Charlotte banks that financed the textile industry in the Carolinas over the last century. Note that there is also a big connection with having a big corporate community and having top universities. In NC, money from tobacco industry fortunes built Duke. In GA, money from Coca Cola built Emory. There are no comparable private universities in SC for a reason. The same goes for cultural and civic projects and amenities. The reality is that there are two major sources of money for these kinds of things--government tax dollars and private fortunes. That is where the real money is. In relatively conservative, low-tax southern states, private money is critical.

My point is that SC can develop (and really must develop) a better base of good "jobs of the future," but it may take quite some time (as it did with the cities in the surrounding states) and will require strong support for small home grown companies that can grow into bigger companies. In the meantime, the drain of professionals and new college grads to surrounding states will likely continue.

[krazeeboi]

I find it hard to believe that SC is actually 50th in job creation.

ONLY for the 2nd quarter.

But otherwise your comments are insightful. Was wondering what happened to you for a minute there; I look forward to your contributions.

I also find it interesting that there is certainly an outflux of college grads in SC, but at the same time, EPodunk.com reports in its "Where 20-somethings are moving" list that SC has experienced a net influx of about 22,000 people ages 20-29 from 1995-2000. Of course this pales in comparison to NC (93,000) and GA (102,000), but at least we have something to work with unlike other Southern states that experienced net losses (AL, MS, LA, AR, WV). Also, when it comes to the percentage of the population with a bachelor's degree or higher (for 2003), EPodunk reports SC at 22.3%, NC at 23.8%, GA at 25%, FL at 25.8%, and VA at an impressive 34.2%. In this category, we are actually not too far behind our neighbors percentage-wise. I know we've got our work cut out for us, but SC is far from destitute.

[UrbanSoutherner]

ONLY for the 2nd quarter.

But otherwise your comments are insightful. Was wondering what happened to you for a minute there; I look forward to your contributions.

I also find it interesting that there is certainly an outflux of college grads in SC, but at the same time, EPodunk.com reports in its "Where 20-somethings are moving" list that SC has experienced a net influx of about 22,000 people ages 20-29 from 1995-2000. Of course this pales in comparison to NC (93,000) and GA (102,000), but at least we have something to work with unlike other Southern states that experienced net losses (AL, MS, LA, AR, WV). Also, when it comes to the percentage of the population with a bachelor's degree or higher (for 2003), EPodunk reports SC at 22.3%, NC at 23.8%, GA at 25%, FL at 25.8%, and VA at an impressive 34.2%. In this category, we are actually not too far behind our neighbors percentage-wise. I know we've got our work cut out for us, but SC is far from destitute.

Thanks for that interesting information Krazeeboi. That is why I just find it hard to think of SC as last. There are also states that are actually loosing population (at least between the 1990 and 2000 census) like Wyoming. You have to be careful with these rankings and make sure you know everything about how it is being measured. For example, some of the SAT rankings do not take into account the percentage of students that are allowed to take the SAT in the various states. Obviously, the more you restrict the test to your college-bound, more academically inclined students, the higher your scores are going to be.

[krazeeboi]

^Exactly. This is the rationale behind the thread I started "Public education and proficiency standards in SC." At any rate, I believe the lists on EPodunk.com describe the methodologies utilized in compiling the data.

[NcSc74]

I am wondering if the large companies in the state help the tax base so that education and civic projects get funded. I hate it when these rankings come out and nothing ever happens to improve the situation. I would say it is state leadership dropping the ball and not planning for the future or not taking in the shifts in commerce. ICAR is a good step but it can't be a token thing. It has to be fully funded and a big name has to get behind it to help with the money. Put those tax breaks to work and make some of these companies pay the piper.

[The_sandlapper]

Very well said urbansoutherner. SC missed the boat, and are now trying like frantic to catch up. It will definately take some work. A good thing though are projects like Innovista (USC Reaserch Campus), ICAR, and SRS. I don't know if these endevours will take of this lifetime but it is a start in the right direction. Maybe these projects will be able to attract the base that the state needs.

[krazeeboi]

Well, here are some GOOD rankings for our fair state. Entrepreneur.com has released its Entrepreneur and NPRC's 2005 Hot Cities for Entrepreneurs rankings. The rankings are divided up into large, midsized, and small cities (actually MSAs), and states and counties are ranked as well. The old MSA designations are still used and not the updated ones. Our major metros fall into the midsized category (I don't know why GSA wouldn't fall into the large category with a population over 1 million). Here are the results:

Midsized Cities (out of 50)

4. Charleston-North Charleston, SC

8. Columbia, SC

9. Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson, SC

Small Cities (out of 171)

22. Myrtle Beach, SC

58. Florence, SC

68. Sumter, SC

As far as state rankings go, SC ranked 9th overall; 3rd in the young company category and 13th in the rapid growth category. In comparison, overall Virginia ranked 4th, Alabama 5th, NC 6th, and Georgia 8th.

For the methodology used in these rankings, look here.