Trophy Philly Building Going Condo?

[city guy]

Know to all Philadelphian as the skyscrapper pair that broke

the city's "gentleman's agreement" that no building would be

taller than William Penn's Hat on city hall.

Rumors says the top 25 floors of Liberty 2 will be condos.

When will this condo crazy stuff end?

Liberty Place Condos

[Everest]

Know to all Philadelphian as the skyscrapper pair that broke

the city's "gentleman's agreement" that no building would be

taller than William Penn's Hat on city hall.

Rumors says the top 25 floors of Liberty 2 will be condos.

When will this condo crazy stuff end?

Liberty Place Condos

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This isn't good imo. There are more than enough condo projects going up already in center city. This shows a lack of confidence in Philadelphia's business sector more than anything.

Waterfront square- 5 towers over 25 stories under construction

Symphony House- 31 stories under construction

Marinaview Condos- 30 UC

Edgewater- 13 stories UC

Metro club-10 stories UC

National-11 stories UC

Tivoli- 10 Stories

Condo Projects set to begin this fall

Murano -43 stories just began clearing lot

Residence Ritz Carlton-44 stories

Mandeville-41 stories

10Rittenhouse-33 stories

NOt too mention projects like Naval Square with 1000 new units and the smaller towers like 108 Arch- 205 Arch-Beaumont-23apts on Market- apts at 34th+ chestnut.

I don't like it . I hope they keep it as office space and attempt to correct the high business tax situation in the city.

[city guy]

This isn't good imo.  There are more than enough condo projects going up already in center city. This shows a lack of confidence in Philadelphia's business sector more than anything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree! I was at a Merk happy hour last week and all these people lived in the city

but commuted to work in the suburbs. Philadelphia can't live on Comcast alone. We need

to make the city more attractive to corporations and lower taxes. This should be the top

priority of our next mayor.

[*Sweetkisses*]

I agree!  I was at a Merk happy hour last week and all these people lived in the city

but commuted to work in the suburbs. Philadelphia can't live on Comcast alone.  We need

to make the city more attractive to corporations and lower taxes.  This should be the top

priority of our next mayor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree.

Come on philly! We need more jobs. Its a shame the suburbs are taking them all.

[Everest]

I agree!

[PghUSA]

^^won't the tax base pretty much be the same if it is high end condos to the trustfunders and lawyers and doctors or office space for a company? Are high-end condos less of a tax base?

The Liberties (I guess you could call them that) were the pair that broke the gentleman's agreement but wasn't also the Mellon Tower or did that come a few years later. Mellon always looked to me as an "older" design circa early 80's etc. whereas the Liberty Towers still look almost contemporary in design. Oh by the way did they rename the Mellon or is it still keeping that name?

[Everest]

^^won't the tax base pretty much be the same if it is high end condos to the trustfunders and lawyers and doctors or office space for a company?  Are high-end condos less of a tax base?

The Liberties (I guess you could call them that) were the pair that broke the gentleman's agreement but wasn't also the Mellon Tower or did that come a few years later.  Mellon always looked to me as an "older" design circa early 80's etc. whereas the Liberty Towers still look almost contemporary in design.  Oh by the way did they rename the Mellon or is it still keeping that name?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's still called the Mellon Bank Tower. It came along but slightly after One and Two liberty towers.

As far as the new tenants in the condos. They will get a 10 year property tax abatement which is a big reason that Center City is having such a condo boom. However all wage earners in Philadelphia whether they work in the city or not, are hit with the Philadlephia wage tax(4.5%) So the 10,000 new people moving into center city will in a way add to the tax base.

This wage tax acts as a double edged sword. It's great to be able to levy a wage tax on people who simply live in the city, yet don't work in the city. However it is a killer for companies wanting to move into the city. The extra 4.5% they have to pay to the city of Philly is usually a deal breaker. Thats just the wage tax, there's a slew of other business taxes that are near national level highs.

[stinkweed]

Easier said than done.

Malvern, Chesterbrooke, King of Prussia don't have 500,000 budget busting school aged children to take care of . These suburban towns can therefore offer much sweeter deals to companies. Thats why theres been 1,000,000 white collar jobs added out in the suburbs in the past 20 years. Big fat zero inside the city.

Philadelphia basically missed the boat. NYC and Chicago stayed ahead of the curve. Downtown powerhouses Boston and SF both saw that bigger is not necessarily better, they both cater to the wealthy and single.

Philadelphia always the stubborn one refused to change and attempted to hold onto the blue collar families. When the industry went overseas the blue collar families moved out to the suburbs and have been replaced with poor. Thats why Philly can't lower the taxes, it has too much baggage it is carrying around.

If Philly had the business sense of Manhattan and Chicago then Center City would today have 6 more trophy towers the size of One Liberty place 945' filled with office workers and expanding the skyline. Pretty sad when you think about it.

The only saving grace is that with Philly chasing all the jobs out to the suburbs, we probably have the nicest suburban communities in the entire USA other than Los Angeles.

The city of Philadelphia educates somewhere around 125,000 children, not 500,000. I know you were just trying to make a point. That's not exactly why 1,000,000 jobs left the city. They left mostly because of the lack of manufacturing jobs coupled with political theft, lack of services, white flight, high taxes and the availability of the automobile. For that matter school budget probably had little to do with it at all. Philadelphians pay very little compared with their suburban counterparts for the education of their children. The state pays something along the lines of 50% of the cost compared with approx. 15% in the suburbs. Hence your dramatically low property taxes. Mine personally are about $900. In the suburbs I'd pay 3 times that easily.

Boston and SF weren't always downtown powerhouses either. SF bulldozed many city blocks of poor people to make room for what is now downtown. Boston, if you look at the numbers, lost a heck of a lot of people but is still about 10 to 15 years ahead of the curve on redevelopment. Just because you see a well healed city today doesn't mean they were always that way.

Philadelphia can absolutely lower the taxes. It's all a big game with the numbers. Go to www.philadelphiaforward.org and you can access some info on this.

We have some of the most boring and poorly planned suburbs in the country. Almost every developable lot within 50 miles of the city will be gone in the next ten years. If this is good I'm crazy.

I agree.

Come on philly! We need more jobs. Its a shame the suburbs are taking them all.

They aren't taking them, we're giving them.

[Everest]

The city of Philadelphia educates somewhere around 125,000 children, not 500,000. I know you were just trying to make a point.

There are 225,000 Philadelphia public school students. Another 100,000 in the archdiocese of Philadelphia. lets say we were both off.

For that matter school budget probably had little to do with it at all. Philadelphians pay very little compared with their suburban counterparts for the education of their children.

You seemed to miss the point. It's not what Philadelphians pay into the school system. It's the massive accumulation of 325,000 school students that are the problem. These students need school nurses, medical treatment, nutrition, text books, safety, transportation etc. etc. etc. Malvern and Chesterbrooke have the right idea. Large estates with 3.8 avg. member families and a plethora of wealthy retirement aged communities that need very little in the way of public funding. It's all take and very little give for them; Philadelphia is the exact opposite, a lot of poverty, too many people and not enough wealth to support them.... That is why Chesterbrooke can bury Philadlephia with incentives to lure businesses. Philadelphia needs every penny it has to provide for basic necessities. The suburbs have bankrolls of tax money available for beautifully landscaped office complexes..... Some of your arguments may have triggered the downfall 50 years ago but in the last 30 years the reason that 1,000,000 jobs grew out in the city instead of the city is that of what I stated above.

Boston and SF weren't always downtown powerhouses either.

I never said they were always powerhouses. I said the reason they are powerhouses today is because of their comparitively small size and catering to wealthy majority.

You do the racial economic math and figure out the differences in the cities.

Philadelphia public school system is 225,000 students... 65% black, 15% white, 15% hispanic

San Francisco public schools system is 85,000 students... 60% white, 20%asian, 12% hispanic, 8% black

Boston public school system is 80,000 students.... 65% white, 15% black, 15% asian, 10% hispanic

We have some of the most boring and poorly planned suburbs in the country. Almost every developable lot within 50 miles of the city will be gone in the next ten years. If this is good I'm crazy.

whew you are so far off ? The mainline is the blueprint of the usa for how suburbs should be developed. To add Swarthmore, Wallingford,Ridley park, Media,Havertown,Flourtown, Ambler, West Chester,Malvern, Lafayette Hill are off the charts incredible. Gladwyn, Villanova,Chadds Ford, Chester Springs are among the top 30 wealthiest towns in the usa.

To wrap it up. Philly has a long long climb ahead of it. Simply lowering taxes isn't going to solve the problem which you are alluding to. They have to fight within the region as well as other major metro's. The city has too much poverty to overcome, too much of an influx of the poor over the years..

[stinkweed]

You seemed to miss the point. It's not what Philadelphians pay into the school system. It's the massive accumulation of 325,000 school students that are the problem. These students need school nurses, medical treatment, nutrition, text books, safety, transportation etc. etc. etc.

I wasn't aware white kids didn't require these same things, huh?

Malvern and Chesterbrooke have the right idea. Large estates with 3.8 avg. member families and a plethora of wealthy retirement aged communities that need very little in the way of public funding. It's all take and very little give for them; Philadelphia is the exact opposite, a lot of poverty, too many people and not enough wealth to support them....

There is a very good book about the decline of Detroit. I can't seem to remember the name but I'll find it. Basically it is about the fall of manufacturing in the 60's and 70's. The caused wealthy people to move outside the city. In turn the city raised taxes to make up for the loss. Raising taxes only caused the middle calss to take flight. Once the ball got rolling it never stopped. More than a case study for Detroit you could easily replace that city for ours or Newark or Baltimore or Pittsburgh etc. I'm not saying taxes were the only cause but it sure was a big one.

That is why Chesterbrooke can bury Philadlephia with incentives to lure businesses. Philadelphia needs every penny it has to provide for basic necessities. The suburbs have bankrolls of tax money available for beautifully landscaped office complexes

This also goes toward corrupt government also. I have friends who work at septa. The behind the seens management is horrible. If you get an hours work out of them your lucky. When contractors have to pay city councilmen to get contracts in their district contractors walk away. When business owners have to pay with the green handshake to get their work inspected or even a permit to begin work it makes for a hostile environment here. I think ( I'll check the exact numbers) philly pays more for trash collection per capita than the burbs but we get far less service. I'm just saying it may not be how much you pay for things but what you get in return.

You do the racial economic math and figure out the differences in the cities.

Philadelphia public school system is 225,000 students... 65% black, 15% white, 15% hispanic

San Francisco public schools system is 85,000 students... 60% white, 20%asian, 12% hispanic, 8% black

Boston public school system is 80,000 students.... 65% white, 15% black, 15% asian, 10% hispanic

I agree that the students turned out of the philadelphia school district are less than set for a career. I'm not sure however that you can simplify it down to white vs. black so easy. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought you were speaking of cost. I read somewhere that philly spends about $6,000/student and Boston spends about $11,000. I think it was the city comparison on MSN places to live. I think the problems are more than the schools and the color of the children in them. Maybe, just maybe, if there were more jobs (lower taxes, woops there I go again) more people would have something to keep them trouble. If more parents had jobs they might care more about their lives and thus their childrens'. I'm sure you've read many of the same studies I have that say people who have jobs, own their own homes and have material crap tned to care more about their lifestyle.

whew you are so far off ? The mainline is the blueprint of the usa for how suburbs should be developed. To add Swarthmore, Wallingford,Ridley park, Media,Havertown,Flourtown, Ambler, West Chester,Malvern, Lafayette Hill are off the charts incredible. Gladwyn, Villanova,Chadds Ford, Chester Springs are among the top 30 wealthiest towns in the usa.

Simply lowering taxes isn't going to solve the problem which you are alluding to.

I'll give you this one. I just don't care enough about it.

They left mostly because of the lack of manufacturing jobs coupled with political theft, lack of services, white flight, high taxes and the availability of the automobile.

I didn't allude to the fact that taxes were the only cause.

[*Sweetkisses*]

I dont see how you people can compare SF and Boston to philly. those cities are much smaller and are able to weed out poverty and cater to a wealthy base. I say its an unfair comparison.

Im sorry everest but it sounds to me like your angry at people who are poor. sorry if phillys not as wealthy as youd like it to be but people are just trying to live. Because I sure as hell know that if they could change they way they are living, they would.

[Everest]

I dont see how you people can compare SF and Boston to philly. those cities are much smaller and are able to weed out poverty and cater to a wealthy base. I say its an unfair comparison.

Im sorry everest but it sounds to me like your angry at people who are poor. sorry if phillys not as wealthy as youd like it to be but people are just trying to live. Because I sure as hell know that if they could change they way they are living, they would.

I didn't compare Bos/SF to Philly. I simply stated a fact that Boston and SF have a lot less budget devouring school aged children to care for.

I'm not angry that many Philadelphia people are poor. I was trying to point out to Stink that due to circumstances beyond the cities control, that the suburbs have an incredible advantage at luring businesses to their towns as compared to Philadelphia.

[UrbaniDesDev]

I believe that in the global market, companies are locating in areas just like what Philly is creating. Vibrant urban areas. Phillie's housing market has been stalled for so long that it is catching up to the other top US cities. In the end the housing will lure business in because it will be a great place to live and they will be able to lure the top minds to live and work there.