The Jewish In Palestine

[pvenne]

Well, given current events I figured this might be an interesting topic to discuss, I might be wrong, but if you have any feelings on this, please share them. (P.S. I fudged a bit...Israel was declared in 1948 and I dont know how to edit my poll question).

[pvenne]

what are your reasons for voting the way you did?

[Brickell]

I voted no, but I don't think anybody's hands are clean in this. Both sides have radicals and idealouges that keep a real solution years (decade? centuries?) away. Personally, I'd like to see Israel become more than just a Jewish state. Invite the Palastenians into the government and learn to get along.

[pvenne]

I voted no, but I don't think anybody's hands are clean in this.  Both sides have radicals and idealouges that keep a real solution years (decade? centuries?) away.  Personally, I'd like to see Israel become more than just a Jewish state.  Invite the Palastenians into the government and learn to get along.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good suggestion. Thanks for your response...this hasn't generated much interest...is it because people don't know what's going on over there or is because no one cares, or is because I am the controversy guy and you'd all just like to sip your coffee at peace in the coffee house ?

[Spartan]

This isn't really a controversy that directly affects that many Americans. This is certainly a major event in the history of that region, and possibly the world. Israel is "being the bigger person" and taking the first step. Palestine is still beating the same drum and saying the terrorism works. I am interested to see how things are going 3-6 months from now.

The Jewish settlement in Israel that continues today did not start in 1948. It started in the late 1800's when the Ottomans still ran the place.

[pvenne]

This isn't really a controversy that directly affects that many Americans. This is certainly a major event in the history of that region, and possibly the world. Israel is "being the bigger person" and taking the first step. Palestine is still beating the same drum and saying the terrorism works. I am interested to see how things are going 3-6 months from now.

The Jewish settlement in Israel that continues today did not start in 1948. It started in the late 1800's when the Ottomans still ran the place.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There was no country called Israel pre-1948. It was all Palestine until then. So maybe "settlement" was the wrong word, but I mean the declaration of the state of Israel, which is what ticked off so many Palestinians. This was in 1948 after the Zionnist movement really picked up momentum. And it was in 1948 that the Arab-Israeli wars began and all of this terrorism stuff went along with the wars and their associated aims.

[pvenne]

This isn't really a controversy that directly affects that many Americans. This is certainly a major event in the history of that region, and possibly the world. Israel is "being the bigger person" and taking the first step. Palestine is still beating the same drum and saying the terrorism works. I am interested to see how things are going 3-6 months from now.

The Jewish settlement in Israel that continues today did not start in 1948. It started in the late 1800's when the Ottomans still ran the place.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When did the ottomans lose control? I thought It was at the end of WWI, or am I completely off? Any history buffs? I dont wanna look it up on the net cause might take a while...but I alwasy thought that's how the map of the mid east was drawn -- by Euro powers carving up the ottoman empire in the Middle East and the British creating/receiving the "Mandate of Palestine" which indirectly led to the formation of Israel when they gave it up after WWII....

[Spartan]

Again, the Zionist movement began in the late 1880's because of growing anti-semitism in Europe. WWI was 1914-1918. The Ottomon's lost and their land was divided up among the European powers (namely France and Britain). Palestine was under British control. The creation of Israel as a state happened because there were already so many Jewish people in the area, otherwise the issue would have never come up.

WW2 likely increased the Zionist movement more than anything at the time.

Also, Palestine used to be alot bigger. The Ottoman province included waht we know today as Jordan. It was split off to be the original "Arab" state, called Trans-Jordan, and leaving Palestine for the Jews. This was unsuccessful, so they tried again creating Israel and Palestine from the area we are familiar with today.

I do realize it is much more complicated than that, but I don't want to type up an entire history.

[pvenne]

Again, the Zionist movement began in the late 1880's because of growing anti-semitism in Europe. WWI was 1914-1918. The Ottomon's lost and their land was divided up among the European powers (namely France and Britain). Palestine was under British control. The creation of Israel as a state happened because there were already so many Jewish people in the area, otherwise the issue would have never come up.

WW2 likely increased the Zionist movement more than anything at the time.

Also, Palestine used to be alot bigger. The Ottoman province included waht we know today as Jordan. It was split off to be the original "Arab" state, called Trans-Jordan, and leaving Palestine for the Jews. This was unsuccessful, so they tried again creating Israel and Palestine from the area we are familiar with today.

I do realize it is much more complicated than that, but I don't want to type up an entire history.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sounds pretty much right to me, that is essentially what I meant by the zionnist movement "picked up momentum" (WWII and hitler etc.)...were you a politicalscience major or something. I am, and my course last semester was "politics of the middle east" at UVM...I can say that nobody knows about this stuff just out of the blue unless they take it upon themselves to read history books (which unfortunately most do not).

The history of the region is very interesting. I agree, though, that it is also very complicated.

[pvenne]

It is also interesting that Jordan went to war against the PLO and kicked them out and into Syria, given that Jordan is the closest thing many of them had to a home land at that time. And even more intersting is that Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel...when in my mind it seems like it should have been the most angered by their declaration of state.

[pvenne]

I voted no, but I don't think anybody's hands are clean in this.  Both sides have radicals and idealouges that keep a real solution years (decade? centuries?) away.  Personally, I'd like to see Israel become more than just a Jewish state.  Invite the Palastenians into the government and learn to get along.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wish we did the same in America with the natives .

[RiversideGator]

There was no country called Israel pre-1948. It was all Palestine until then. So maybe "settlement" was the wrong word, but I mean the declaration of the state of Israel, which is what ticked off so many Palestinians. This was in 1948 after the Zionnist movement really picked up momentum. And it was in 1948 that the Arab-Israeli wars began and all of this terrorism stuff went along with the wars and their associated aims.

The entire region was part of the British Empire up to roughly 1947. After WWII, the Brits decided it wasnt worthwhile to keep their Empire and they let most of it go in the succeeding years. The UN partitioned the Trans-Jordan region into two parts - one Jewish and one Arab (seems fair to me). The state of Israel was then declared. This resulted in a war of extermination in which the Arab nations all attacked Israel (and lost).

Personally, I'd like to see Israel become more than just a Jewish state. Invite the Palastenians into the government and learn to get along.

Arabs living within Israel proper do fully participate in the political process, vote, have political parties and sit in the Knesset. The Arabs in the "occupied territories" however do not. The problem with Israel has always been that the Arabs refuse to recognize the right of Israel to exist and therefore have, off and on, fought genocidal wars against the state of Israel.

Read history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Zionism_and_Aliyah

[Spartan]

sounds pretty much right to me, that is essentially what I meant by the zionnist movement "picked up momentum" (WWII and hitler etc.)...were you a politicalscience major or something.  I am, and my course last semester was "politics of the middle east" at UVM...I can say that nobody knows about this stuff just out of the blue unless they take it upon themselves to read history books (which unfortunately most do not).

The history of the region is very interesting.  I agree, though, that it is also very complicated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Poli-sci minor actually. I tool several courses on or relating to the Middle East. Taking these classes by no means makes me an expert, but I think I might have a better understanding than the average joe. You're right though. You really can't understand it with out having read a little background on your own.

History, however, is a hobby of mine. I don't crave it, but I enjoy reading about history and how certain things came to be- like this Israel and Palestine thing.

The 'funny' thing about the stiuation is that the arabs claim that the Jew forced them out of Palestine, but in reality the Arabs told them to lave because they were going to go to war. So after most of the Arab Palestinians left, the Arabs attacked, then lost the first war. They left VOLUNTARILY. I say that is their own fault since they weren't forced to leave.

What I also don't understand is why the Brits and the UN don't catch more flack about this since they basicly set up the partitions that started this mess.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

I believe that Israel should fend for itself, they are not worthy of aid. They have been poor allies, they have sold off our military secrets (F-16's for example) and have promoted a corrupt and destructive government of terror. I don't know how their lobby has become so powerful in the United States but something needs to be done about it. Anyone who mentions it gets labeled as "anti-semetic".

This isn't really a controversy that directly affects that many Americans.

We give them many billions of tax payer dollars a year... They should have enough economic power to support themselves. Our support of them is why much of the Middle East hates the United States, but the power elite are too stubborn to change a position and pull our resources out of there. Maybe there is also fear of the many nukes that Israel has. Israel is a scary threat to world peace.

[Spartan]

You have a valid point, but most Americans don't see that, nor do they care because as I said- it doesn't directly affect them.

[IgKh]

We give them many billions of tax payer dollars a year... They should have enough economic power to support themselves.

I think you are correct as well. The american aid is only about 5% of our annual budget. With the economy strengthening a bit, Israel could make do without it, and more importantly, without the strings attached to aid.

[pvenne]

Poli-sci minor actually. I tool several courses on or relating to the Middle East. Taking these classes by no means makes me an expert, but I think I might have a better understanding than the average joe. You're right though. You really can't understand it with out having read a little background on your own.

History, however, is a hobby of mine. I don't crave it, but I enjoy reading about history and how certain things came to be- like this Israel and Palestine thing.

The 'funny' thing about the stiuation is that the arabs claim that the Jew forced them out of Palestine, but in reality the Arabs told them to lave because they were going to go to war. So after most of the Arab Palestinians left, the Arabs attacked, then lost the first war.  They left VOLUNTARILY. I say that is their own fault since they weren't forced to leave.

What I also don't understand is why the Brits and the UN don't catch more flack about this since they basicly set up the partitions that started this mess.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

interesting, i never knew they left on their own...very interesting. Good points about the UN

[pvenne]

I believe that Israel should fend for itself, they are not worthy of aid. They have been poor allies, they have sold off our military secrets (F-16's for example) and have promoted a corrupt and destructive government of terror. I don't know how their lobby has become so powerful in the United States but something needs to be done about it. Anyone who mentions it gets labeled as "anti-semetic".

We give them many billions of tax payer dollars a year... They should have enough economic power to support themselves. Our support of them is why much of the Middle East hates the United States, but the power elite are too stubborn to change a position and pull our resources out of there. Maybe there is also fear of the many nukes that Israel has. Israel is a scary threat to world peace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

in the public eye it seems as though they have been a poor aly, but im sure there is a reason for their influence with the U.S. ... because i just cant see america blindly supporting a country we do not benefit from. you can say that we support evil regimes, terrorists whatever you want, but there is usually some measure of self interest in it. i once learned how america and israel got tied so tightly together, i forget what it was, but there is an explanation for it. Im sure we wouldnt give a damn about them if it weren't for our own good. i could be wrong, but it just seems unamerican to support something for no reason. I think there are good reasons for supporting them, and if anyone can list some of them, then my argument would make more sense. and military technology isn't something I'd imagine to stay secret for long anyways...it just seems in the best interest of whoever possesses it to sell it off for a profit since it is in such great demand. Many of the backwards countries who would use our military tech against us dont have the capacity to produce it anyway, so they usually have to buy it from others. and those who do have the capacity to produce it , i would imagine, could probably invent similar devices anyway. This is all my opinion, you can disagree or agree, but please dont argue me to death with facts and statistics, it gives me a headache and it is always possible to spin a story in whichever direction you want depending on whiuch selective facts you choose to present. Im just saying it makes sense that if we are supporting them then they must be a good country for an alliance....it just makes sense...the reverse does not.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

I think there are good reasons for supporting them, and if anyone can list some of them, then my argument would make more sense. and military technology isn't something I'd imagine to stay secret for long anyways...

What?!?!?! That should be enough reason to destroy them or at least end our support of them in the first place.

i could be wrong, but it just seems unamerican to support something for no reason.

There is a reason for supporting isreal, oil, but there are better and cheaper ways to go about keeping the oil supply safe. We are in a most dangerous place now solely because of this support for them. We are too stubborn to remove this support. The lobby that supports Isreal is way too powerful.

[TheBostonian]

Poli-sci minor actually. I tool several courses on or relating to the Middle East. Taking these classes by no means makes me an expert, but I think I might have a better understanding than the average joe. You're right though. You really can't understand it with out having read a little background on your own.

History, however, is a hobby of mine. I don't crave it, but I enjoy reading about history and how certain things came to be- like this Israel and Palestine thing.

The 'funny' thing about the stiuation is that the arabs claim that the Jew forced them out of Palestine, but in reality the Arabs told them to lave because they were going to go to war. So after most of the Arab Palestinians left, the Arabs attacked, then lost the first war.  They left VOLUNTARILY. I say that is their own fault since they weren't forced to leave.

What I also don't understand is why the Brits and the UN don't catch more flack about this since they basicly set up the partitions that started this mess.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm no expert either, but I am aware that the Palestinian Arab exodus is more complex than that. It is agreed that many Palestinians left due to the conditions of war. And it is an oversimplification to contend either that they were forcibly removed or that they left voluntarily. Yes, there are some cases of Arab leaders telling the natives to leave during the Arab attacks and prepare to return behind victorious Arab armies that will give you some Jewish property. And there was one particular Labor Zionist Mayor who pleaded with the natives to stay. But there was also some Jewish violence against Arabs, although it was not as systematic as anti-Zionists might claim. And Arab leaders, whose counterparts in Palestine were themselves fleeing, may have spread the word of the Jewish terror with some exaggeration, in the hope that Palestinians would fight the Jews. But this backfired and simply scared many out of Palestine.

The Deir Yassin massacre is the big example of Jewish terror, although there is debate about whether the village was of military significance or not. But some Jewish leaders were pleased (and said so) that this and other incidents, as atrocious as they were, could conveniently frighten Palestinian Arabs out of Palestine.

[DetroitBazaar]

Wish there were more options to vote on.

[daniel18]

They should be kicked out. Let the Jew leach off the U$.

[P-Land]

They should be kicked out. Let the Jew leach off the U$.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uh, who should be kicked out? And Jews would never have to "leach off" the U.S. simply because many of them "are" the U.S. Look at some of our highest ranking and most influential politicians and other great minds. Jesus, even Jesus was a Jew LoL.

[TheBostonian]

Uh, who should be kicked out?  And Jews would never have to "leach off" the U.S. simply because many of them "are" the U.S.  Look at some of our highest ranking and most influential politicians and other great minds.  Jesus, even Jesus was a Jew LoL.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Freud, Marx and Einstein. They shape our world.

[waccamatt]

This was a biased post from the start, since Israel was referred to as Palestine. If you want to play that game, Israel was originally known as Canaan several thousand years ago until the Jews were displaced. As far as Israelis and Palestinians being able to run a country together? Forget it. It will never happen. I am in favor of a Palestinian state on the west bank and the Gaza strip, but not as a part of Israel.