jeafl
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Posts posted by jeafl
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Here is a site for JTA study,actually they are close to Step 4 and might finilize project sood,if approved maybe even start building BRT.
For now its North-south...two lines one next to 95 and second next to Phillips...from Airport to Mandarin.
All details at site..
http://www.jaxrapidtransit.com/whats_new/
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If this line goes north-south, how many of the people served will earn their living in Jacksonville without paying the Jacksonville's taxes that will support the rail line?
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Express Buses and park-and-ride are typically supporting parts of commuter rail lines. I'm not aware of any commuter rail line without them, so I'd expect Jax's would have them as well.
But Jacksonville has already tried park-and-ride lots and we don
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Well, I think that any community in the city where you need to have a car would be the suburbs. Technically Riverside is one of the first suburban communities, but it is more urban than most neighborhoods and is really like a small town in itself in that you can do just about everything here without leaving. I would say that around NAS is the westside and suburbia though.
Until very recently Riverside did not have a grocery store so a car was necessary. Also, Riverside has few drug stores, no office supply store (to my knowledge), very few clothing stores, no movie theaters, no bookstores and very few restaurants. I don't see how many people can live in Riverside without a car. And Riverside is like most of Jacksonville- you must have a car to survive because public transit is next to useless and the heat and humidity make even short walks unbearable- even if we had enough sidewalks. You cannot even live in the La Villa end of downtown and have a grocery store within walking distance. All of Jacksonville is essentially a suburb.
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However, there is a distinct line between being negative and being disruptive (like if someone continuously posts comments that are remarkably outrageous or false on their face) ... and I hope that line doesn't keep on getting crossed ...
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What have I posted that is "remarkably outrageous or false on their face"?
I have asked another poster how long he has lived in Jacksonville. I recently read that roughly half of the city's population is not from here. However, I was born and raised here and likely know more about how this city operates than some of the rest of you. If my comments seem negative, they are supported by a 37 years of experience.
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Simple, they'll have to catch a connecting express bus or drive to the nearest park-n-ride lot, until additional methods of fixed transit, such as BRT, can be built in those areas.
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We have no express buses or park-and-ride lots anywhere near where I live. And If I had to have a car anyway, I see no reason to bother with JTA.
And why should the more populated parts of town not have easy access to the rail line?
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Wow, this guy even has the coolest of the cool, Lakelander, steaming.
Can we ban him?
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I guess freedom of speech is an unknown concept here.
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You cant expect urban conveniences if you live in a suburban neighborhood. From my house in Riverside, I can walk to the Publix and even walk to the Willow Branch Library if I was ambitious. I could easily ride a bike downtown to work. Move to a more convenient area.
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How do you define a suburban neighborhood? I live near NAS and I am certainly not in the suburbs.
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What are you talking about? This line would cut right through the HEART of Jacksonville. It would serve most of Jax's population, connect several major destination points, as well as the rapidly growing suburbs to the north and south. Imo, there's no better starter route for commuter rail in this city.
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If this route goes from Amelia Island, past Gateway, through downtown and on to St. Augustine, how will will serve people at the beach or on the westside?
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Even using the most comprehensive transit systems (i.e. NYC, Toronto, Sydney, Tokyo, etc.) there is no way possible to provide "door-to-door" service. Walking is a requirement af ANY mass transit passenger. A taxi is literally the only way to prevent walking. Those that refuse to walk (or in your case are unable to walk) will then have to continue to suffer the daily gridlock in their car while cursing the congestion.
You are thinking in terms of preserving the personal-use automobile.
As it stands now I have a 10-15 minute walk, depending on the weather and how many library books I am carrying, to get to the nearest JTA bus stop from my house. And I must be sure to arrive early just in case the bus is running ahead of schedule, meaning I have to wait in either the cold or heat. And my stop has no cover or bench.
But, why should this first line be what is proposed instead of something that will benefit more people who actually live in Jacksonville?This proposed line (setting aside any correlation to my apparent benefit) is only the first leg of a possible comprehensive, multimodal, system that may service the needs of most anyone in the Jacksonville Metro.Are you willing to pay more taxes to fund "air conditioned" bus stations and giant Tilapia tanks??? Who needs to be serious?<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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Could you please provide a citation or reference? I've never heard of such a thing.
I heard it on the local TV news.
I also remember hearing that people here for the Superbowl were sold people mover passes that ended up costing the riders more than paying the fare for each ride would have cost. Is this how the profit was made?
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Park n Ride lots are a necessity for commuter rail in suburban oriented metros.
Only if no bus service to the stations is provided.
You ask what will keep them from using that car to go all the way to work? Traffic congestion.And traffic congestion we already have makes people seek out alternatives like car pooling?
Many, like myself, would also use these park-n-ride lots to store our cars, when going to downtown sporting events or the airport, to avoid high parking fees and after game traffic.What happens if the city imposes fees for the park-n-ride lots that are as high as what you find elsewhere?
Btw, Mandarin would be served by this proposed line, with possible stations at Baymeadows, Sunbeam Road or St. Augustine Road. If Orange Park is interested in commuter rail, then Clay County will have to step up to the plate and contribute its fair share of funds, as well.What about the beaches (part of Duval County) and Crystal Springs and the housing developments and apartment complexes in Jacksonville along Blanding Blvd? Why should St. Augustine or Amelia Island be served before the the People of Jacksonville have all of their needs met?
Atlanta's subway system had two decent lines extending across town, in four directions, well before the olympics came along.Exactly what I said, although the lines were not completely underground.
Our downtown people mover is a completely different type of rail system and can't be compared to heavy rail.It cannot be compared to MARTA either since MARTA is actually useful.
A study was conducted during the Superbowl regarding the people mover. Based on the cost it took to operate the system and the number of people that actually used it, it would have been cheaper to provide cab fare.
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I think the best solution for Jacksonvilke (since it's a hot, humid, car-oriented city) is to plan for a "Park-and-Ride" system, where all the car lovers can drive to.
They'll still have a great commute into downtown (or to all those offices near JTB), but won't have to sacrifice the conveniences of their cars.
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We have (or had) park-n-ride already using buses. I know that the intersection of San Jose and I295 was a park-n-ride lot. But this means that people towards Fruit Cove still had to have a car and still had to fight San Jose just to spend an hour on the bus.
But, if someone has to have a car to get to a commuter station or bus stop, what will keep them from using that car to go all the way to work? I don't see a mass-transit system as an adjunct to automobiles. I see it as a way to replace automobiles.
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We do have "door-to-door" service, they're called taxis.
How many people can afford taxis?
Mass transit is designed to move general masses to general areas. There is no way possible to ride a train or bus directly from point "A" to point "B" without some walking using even the most complex transit systems. Its just a fact of life and, frankly, is good for you!This depends entirely on how the system is designed. It will depend on how many rail lines the system has, how far apart the stations are, how often the various rail lines intersect and how many buses you have to take people back and forth to the stations. With enough airport shuttle-type buses, each one covering a very limited geographic area and enough rail stations, you could have door-to-door bus service.
And the older the population gets, the more door-to-door service would be needed. I am only 37, but already have arthritis in my knees and have trouble walking at times.
If the heat and humidity is too much maybe we can put a glass bubble over the entire city and air condition it.Be serious.
I once read a book by John Todd (if I remember correctly). He proposed bus shelters built around giant tanks of water that were used to grow tilapia. This would be suitable in cold climates, but why couldn't we have solar powered air conditioned bus shelters here?
I speak as a firm supporter of this initiative to create a light rail plan and will most definitely park my car in a park'n' ride lot in St. Augustine and commute to the southside of Jax everyday and have no problem whatsoever walking a few blocks or taking a bus from the station to my office. I can also comfortably say that I speak for thousands of others along the proposed line. I would also love to be able to take the train from St. Aug to the airport without stressing the the drive and fronting the money for gas and airport parking.<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And again I point out that in comparison to places like Mandarin and Orange Park, not many commuters would come from St. Augustine. There are other rail lines that would be more useful and more needed.
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I think you thinking too hard about this proposal. The article said they were studying a possible commuter rail line. Lets give them time to see what they come up with before saying what people will and won't do. Btw, it gets pretty hot in Dallas too, but their commuter rail still gets good ridership.
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The people mover is the result of a very long term planning and design process. I remember hearing about it back during the Carter Administration. I cannot help but be hard on any JTA plan. Their track record is abyssmal.
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I was in Atlanta before the '96 Olympics, when the MARTA trains did not go far past the city limits. I know there was talk of extending the trains to Stone Mountain to reach some of the Olympic venues, but I've never heard if it was built. Such a link would be a heavy rail system in my view since it connects people who live in suburbs far away from the city center. But when I was in Atlanta MARTA was nothing more than Jacksonville's people mover- other than the fact that MARTA actually served a purpose.
Atlanta doesn't have a commuter rail system, it has a heavy rail system. Something Jacksonville isn't ready for and will probably never have. Btw, the only cities in the South that have heavy rail systems are Atlanta, Miami & Washington. For your understanding, commuter rail runs on existing freight rail lines and not its own dedicated path. This is way its significantly cheaper, because all you have to do is buy passenger rail cars and build stations.This is commuter rail
TRE in Dallas/Fort Worth
Tri-Rail in Miami/Fort Lauderdale/West Palm Beach
This is light rail
TRAX - Salt Lake City
This is heavy rail
Metrorail - Miami
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That's funny. I've done it in Boston, on inclines and declines, and New York as have many millions of others have. Philadelphia's SEPTA can vouch through its ridership data. Heck, let's even consider DC's Metro.
How often do these points north have 110 degree humitures?
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jeafl - I think you are probably painting the wrong picture in your mind. The only reason they called the commuter rail "from Fernindina to St. Augustine" was because those are the TERMINAL stops. The primary service would be from the Jax suburbs to Downtown ... all the points in between. The service to outlying stops is generally much lighter.
I would have to see a map of the entire system and the timetable for construction. And still I would not worry about tourism before I would people who have to commute to work every day.
But, in our heat and humidity, even a 5 minute walk to a bus stop would be horrendous. I would want something close to door-to-door bus service to the rail stations, using small buses like shuttle services have.Also, few people really walk to commuter lines. They drive or bike for a little bit, then get on the train, then ride downtown transit to their offices.Of course, the obvious retort is ... "well why should we be worried about mass transit for the suburbs, when our more urban neighborhoods need light rail!!" And that's a valid concern. However, projections can put commuter rail at damn near 50x cheaper per-mile than light-rail.But, is it cost effective to build one thing because its cheap while ignoring what is really needed?
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Most of the commuter rail lines, I've personally traveled on, also have express bus routes running from their stations into various city neighborhoods, as well as large park & ride lots, at far out suburban stations. This would eliminate the need to walk a mile to get to a station, if you reside within a fairly urban area.
When I was in school in Atlanta, MARTA had 2 rail lines- one running north-south and the other running east-west. Then buses traveled from a station on one line to a station on the other. You could easily use MARTA to travel Atlanta in circles. I could go from Emory University on the eastern edge of Atlanta (on Decatur's doorstep) to the airport on the south of Atlanta by taking 1 bus to a north-south station and then taking the train to the airport and the trip took less than 45 minutes. In Jacksonville it takes almost an hour to go from NAS to the library downtown. JTA does not have a good track record and I doubt than it can design an effective commuter rail system.
Its best for an auto-oriented city, like Jax, to start with one single successful line (with stations spaced every mile or two, at least in the city) and add additional lines (such as downtown to Orange Park & Westside), as time goes on and public support builds for alternative forms of transit systems.<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wouldn't it be best to start with whatever line would reduce the most traffic? If most of the commuter traffic goes from Orange Part (or Mandarin or wherever) to downtown Jacksonville, shouldn't that be the first commuter line built?
The trouble with Jacksonville is that city hall goes first for the flashy instead of dealing with legitimate problems.
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It would serve them all. At least those along that route. This wouldn't get you from NAS Jax to Regency though as the line doesn't travel near it but it would open access to about 100,000 people within a mile or so of the line that could get to many destinations without a car or dealing with the rising fuel costs.
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Having to walk a mile from a commuter line to a destination when the humiture is 110 means the mass transit system serves nobody's needs.
We do need a commuter rail system, but instead of sending business to Amelia Island and St. Augustine, we should be solving our own problems first. Think of a rail system consisting of a dozen routes traveling in a concentric circle with another route running east-west and another running north-south and then two more making an X over the center. Then put stations no more than, say, 4 miles apart and then use buses to filter the commuters out to their destination.
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There's our light rail line to the Beaches then. Run a rail line along the north side of Beach Blvd and end it at the rail station in Jax Beach. If additional lanes of Beach are needed, create them on the south side of the street.
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Why not take 1 lane of Beach Blvd. each way and use it for commuter rail and simply do away with the automobiles that now use these lanes?
I don't think building rail lines along with auto lanes will solve anything. As big as Jacksonville is, as long as people have cars and roads to drive them on, they will drive rather than ride.
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Keep in mind, commuter rail would only serve as an alternative mode of transportation in the Jacksonville area. This doesn't mean it can be viewed as an end-all solution to our traffic problems.
As for your comment, both "tourist traps" actually have people, who live in them and would also sevre as additional entertainment options for Jacksonville residents. In addtion, everything, in between, would serve a large segment of Jacksonville's local population. So, this commuter line would actually serve both, local commuters and tourist. Imo, this would be the best of both worlds and would be cheaper than building any other type of transit system or major road project, in this spreadout metro.
If it was up to me, this line would become of the centerpiece of JTA's alternative transportation systems, with additional, improved bus lines (express routes, BRT, regular city bus) running out from it, to other parts of the metro, not accessible by existing rail.
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But, what purpose should our mass transit system serve? Should it cater to leisure travelers or should it be designed to serve the daily needs of people going back and forth to work? I live near NAS and once had a part-time teaching job at Seacoast behind Regency Square. To use JTA I had to leave home by 8:30 in order to reach work for an 11:00 class. My work day lasted only about 3 hours, but I never got back home before 4:00 in the afternoon.
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If the route goes from one tourist trap to another, wouldn't it serve mostly tourists?
A rail line from Ameila Island to St. Augustine on existing rails would connect Centre Street (Fernandina Beach), the airport/River City Marketplace, Dunn Ave, Jax Zoo, the Northside, Gateway Mall, Edward Water Collage, Durkeeville, the Farmers Market, downtown, San Marco, Emerson, University Blvd, Baymeadows, Mandarin, Avenues Mall, St. Augustine Road, Batram Park, booming Northern St. Johns County and downtown St. Augustine. For a regional rail line, that connects a lot of local destination points and would seem to get decent ridership and seems like a good start. In fact, it would also make it a waste to build half of the proposed BRT system.Btw, commuter rail could never be built to the beaches, because existing railroad tracks don't go there. Instead JTA should take half its BRT funds and spend on a line stretching from downtown to the beaches.
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A rail line from Amelia to St. Augustine? Why? If a commuter rail does not connect the beaches, downtown, the Southside Blvd. corridor, Baymeadows, Mandarin and Orange Park, what good will it do?
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I understand the basics of New Urbanism- recreate the city as it was before the post-WWII suburbanization movement in that you mix residential, commercial and civic functions within a "neighborhood" so you can minimize the burden placed on the transportation grid. I like the idea of having your basic needs within a 5 minute walk- but a 5 minute walk here in Florida's 100+ degree humiture cannot be a 5 minute walk elsewhere. I also like the idea of destroying Wal-Mart- which would be a requisite for the widespread adoption of New Urbanism.
However, I don't believe that simply re-arranging cities is enough. My version of New Urbanism would also take demographics into account so neighborhoods would have a cohesive human society. My version would also address human ecology- how we use natural resources (water, sunlight et cetera) and how we deal with waste products (storm water, sewage, msw et cetera).
I can handle the ecology aspect since I have a degree in biology and have spent some time researching the issue on my own. But, what about the sociological component? Does anyone know of anything that has been published recently on urban demographics? For example, how many people should a New Urbanism neighborhood have? Also how big should a grade school be to make efficient use of teachers, buildings et cetera without being big enough to encourage anonymity? If everyone in a school knows everyone else, then any one individual is less likely to cause trouble due to peer pressure. Someone who is just a face in a crowd could easily become a delinquent without suffering any general social stigma.
Also, how would an urban planner go about deciding what types of businesses and retail stores should go in a neighborhood and how large should the stores be?
Jacksonville Transit
in Jacksonville
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Apart from the fast food places, how many of these restaurants are closed except for 9-5 Monday through Friday? How well do they serve the people that live in Riverside?
And like I said Riverside has only 1 grocery store and only 2 drug stores. Now tell me how many Riverside residents live too far away to walk to these stores?
As for the other retail stores, aren't they more in the way of specialty stores? How many people can do their general shopping for household goods in these stores?