NewUrban
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Posts posted by NewUrban
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Strict design guidelines have been used for decades as a means of class warfare. That may not be the case here, but I believe it's a valid point to bring to the discussion.
If you think you have a case where they're breaking the established rules and it's going to affect your wellbeing, take it up with an attorney. You may have a case. It just seems futile though. If I lived there, I'd be praying that those lots get filled and the transit element gets implementd.
For you Transit Oriented Development (TOD) people its all about transit. It would be wonderful to have public transit linking everything, but if there is no aesthetic consideration, than you will be able to quickly, efficiently, and sustainably get from one crappy place to the next; not a world I want to live in.
And for the leftists who want to talk about design control being a form of class warfare, you should know that the Obama administration is quite pro-New Urbanism and that the Congress for New Urbanism is well populated with liberals and socialists.
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Like you say, the important design guidelines for TND are associated with "scale, massing, density, setbacks, block dimensions etc". All of that contribute to the ability for one to live, function, and experience the sense of community that's being sold. All of that has been and remains to be implemented at Verdae.
The design language of individual buildings is purely an aesthetic chase. Some continuity can definitely help establish a feel and sense of place. And, that's fantastic from a marketing standpoint. In Verdae, it's really hard for me to understand where this drops off for you guys... It's not like we've seen a change from all brick to vinyl siding. Having experienced other TND neighborhoods, as well, I'm not sure I see how Verdae is so different?
You obviously know a lot more about Verdae than I do. What evidence do you have that "all of that has been...implemented at Verdae"?
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I can't figure out why there is so much whining over this development.
If you don't like the homes that are being built in Verdae then don't move there or drive through it. Seems simple to me. Now if you're a resident there and don't like what's being offered then you can put up your house for sale and move, file a complaint with the developer and city, or just stay put and live your life happily. Somebody said there was no masterplan for Verdae. I beg to differ: http://www.wgmdesign...gn-planning.php
Oh and does it seem fishy to anybody else that these naysayer posts are showing up all of the sudden?
Maybe it's a competing developer who isn't happy. Verdae does have a rudimentary master plan done by a Charlotte firm with very little urban planning and no recognized TND experience. The current plan reflects "euclidian" planning which encourages segregation of uses (and pricing/income levels in residential/ note the separation of the "Manor" lots from Ruskin Square). Euclidian planning is essentially the type of 1970s and 80s type of master planning that we are all familiar with (gates etc.). Verdae is not a New Urbanist or TND plan as claimed by the developer. Please see the Smart Code: http://www.smartcodecentral.org/ . Why can't Greenville have a sophisticated, well planned, New Urbanist community?
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Since, you say you are a resident of Verdae, maybe you can actually offer specific examples of how Verdae isn't living up to its hype? You and NewUrban make rather strong accusations for a development that's only a few years into development and moving somewhat slow due to the economy. Some things seem premature at this point, and I've still yet to understand the basis of this bashing. I simply want some evidence to better understand the reasons of unhappiness. To this point, I've yet to be presented with anything of substance...
You seem unwilling to accept that there is an architectural component to New Urbanism. It is true that if you look at most of what has been written about New Urbanism and, if fact, the Smart Code itself does not get very specific about about the design of individual buildings. The Smart Code does not promote any particular architectural vocabulary; but it does address scale, massing, density, setbacks, block dimensions etc. The point I continue to try to make, however inarticulately, is that almost all TNDs around the country try to aim higher than typical suburban architecture for the individual buildings. Maybe the architecture of individual buildings is not important to you; maybe its all about density and transit, but I think that does not really represent a complete vision or understanding about what makes places special and what make people want to live and work in them. Does this make any sense?
Maybe Elizabeth Moule and Stefanos Polyzoides in their essay "The Street, the Block, and Building" that appears in the book, The New Urbanism, Toward an Architecture of Community , say it a little better:
"The judicious application of codes is to result in a diverse, beautiful, and predictable fabric of buildings, open space and landscape that can structure villages, towns, cities, and indeed the metropolitan region. Architecture and urbanism shall not be separated; nor shall formal, social, economic and technical/functional issues be considered in isolation."
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Isn't everything in I'on like $500,000 and up? If so, you can't really compare the two. I do think Verdae started out wanting to stay with that demographic but adjusted to the economic reality.
There are hundreds of TNDs around the country that have all types of residential options from $400 a month garage apartments to $4 million dollar houses. Please see www.tndtownpaper.com.
Verdae has scores of examples to look to for inspiration; they just choose not to.
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I'm amazed at the conversation taking place. I'm not a defender of all things Verdae, as I'm not saying that it has everything correct. However, comparing it to I'On? Really? I'on is built to the specs of a TND, but its context is not. Connectivity SUCKS! Verdae is within the city, has multiple access points and has a mass transit connect currently via bus, and will at some point have a BRT or LRT connection. Totally different beast. One is built, the other is not. At the same time, however, one is very integrated within the current fabric of the metro, and the other is on the water and still has the problems associated with suburban sprawl.
I'm still not sure I understand how it can be said that Verdae has basically sold its soul because of some houses and townhomes..? We've discuss different price points, yes. But, apparently everything must look exactly the same in order to be able to call Verdae home??? Very confused.
I think it is all about aspiration and inspiration. Verdae is one of the most important development sites in the Southeast. You are absolutely correct to point out Verdae's superior connectivity and present and future connectivity to mass transit. I completely agree with everything you've said relative to transit. The point I am trying to make is that there are hundreds of well executed TNDs around the country and architecture is an important component of them. I am concerned that Verdae has not performed the type of in depth master planning and architectural coding that the project warrants. Does everything look the same at I'on, Hammonds Ferry, or for a more modern architecture example see Prospect, http://www.prospectnewtown.com/?
With one of the greatest infill opportunities of the century should Verdae aspire to great architecture at all price points? I am only trying to make a case for sophisticated design as opposed to grocery store check-out plan book design/spec builder plans. Do you understand what I am trying to say?
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You have to remember a lot of the homes if not all of the homes in Verdae are built to buyer's specifications after the lot is sold. That's one of the main reasons you see so much diversity in each home built within the development.
The best, rather, almost all, TNDs have an architectural code that dictates scale, massing, building elevations, setbacks, and materials. In essence an architectural vocabulary is created for the development that allows for endless variety within the language. You are correct to say that many of the homes's in Verdae will be built to buyer's specifications. However, Verdae is apparently relaxing the architectural code they had because they now want to be all things to all people without regard to a consistent aesthetic. Also, Verdae is currently building spec houses and townhouses that are inconsistent with the original architectural code of the houses that were built around Ruskin Square.
Relaxing the standards is a direct response to the economic downturn. There are hundreds of TNDs around the country now that have been successful, even in this economy, in consistently applying a well written architectural code. Verdae seems willing to exchange short term gain for long term value creation. There is no reason that Greenville and the Upstate shouldn't have a major TND that is as well conceived and executed as TNDs such as I'on in Mt. Pleasant or Hammonds Ferry in Augusta. The reason that Verdae will unlikely be of the caliber of those type of projects is because there is no one currently involved in the development of the project who has an in depth understanding or appreciation for New Urbanism/Traditional Neighborhood Development.
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I agree with everything you've said here. I would really like for btoy to weigh in, as it was btoy who tried to suggest that "toned down" was actually less expensive. I know for a fact that the red house, which I agree is the more compositionally restrained, is also the more expensive house, and that can largely by attributed to the use of higher quality windows and doors and wood soffit/eaves instead of vinyl. Cost aside, I am assuming from what you said that you would consider the red house to be better architecture? In other words, the red house represents more sophisticated design?
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So, you think the red house is more "toned down"? Which house do you like better and why?
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Again...btoy's words not mine, but I think in saying "toned down" btoy meant less exterior complexity of design and "ornamentation". So, given that meaning which of the two houses above is more "toned down" in your mind? I think color should be disregarded here as there is no cost impact of one color over another.
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I said your words they were actually btoy's words, sorry, but what do you think?
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I still don't understand your argument...
We're getting into subjective stuff here. Which of the houses is more "toned down" (your words) and why?
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Exactly, some people forget that not all buyers get the same value out of the exterior design. Some purchasers only have so much to spend and rather put that money towards more space or more luxery inside where they spend their time rather than on outside ornemetation. That is not to say anything goes, but but it is just smart to have some toned down options.
I don't think that architectural quality and "ornamentation" are necessarily related. To me this is a question of high quality design versus less skilled design. Some of the greatest buildings in the history of architecture are almost completely devoid of ornament. To you which of the following houses is more "toned down"?
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Please do. I'm also not sure I understand the problem with "implying" historical architecture, instead of reproducing it. Why does it have to be 'traditional' or "historical" (as you say) design, anyway?
I anticipated your response and will endeavor to point out specific detail when I have a little more time. I think what it really boils down to is good design, and while determining "good" design may be very subjective, I do think that the public tends to be more stimulated somehow by good design, traditional or modern, than by spec builder grade, draftsman (as opposed to architect) generated home design.
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I am not in any way suggesting that Verdae should not promote a variety of price points, however, they have made the decision to reduce the quality of the architecture in order to increase the square footage of the units and decrease the pricing. This is a huge mistake. In other examples of TND such as I'on in Mt. Pleasant or Hammonds Ferry in Augusta, they have applied a sophisticated architectural code to even the least expensive housing. I contend that you can build a $175,000 house at Verdae that has true architectural integrity. They did not have to dumb down the architecture to achieve sales. The Lazarus Shouse houses imply historic architecture instead of trying to reproduce it as been done now in scores of well executed TNDs around the country. I can point out specific poorly executed details, if that is of interest.
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The Lazarus Shouse houses that were recently completed do not seem to be of the same quality as the original houses and the houses in the "Manor" area. I guess with the economy Verdae has had to move down market. What a shame.
If you don't like the homes that are being built in Verdae then don't move there or drive through it. Seems simple to me. Now if you're a resident there and don't like what's being offered then you can put up your house for sale and move, file a complaint with the developer and city, or just stay put and live your life happily. 
Maybe it's a competing developer who isn't happy. 
Traffic Congestion, Road Construction, & Improvement Projects
in Greenville
Posted
Someone has already run through one of the medians knocking down all of the trees. Very unfortunate.