NDL
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Posts posted by NDL
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The above article, in my view, makes a specious argument, which ignores all other sources of revenue.
I have yet to find out how much revenue SC gets from the federal government, yet here's an interesting blurb:
"The chart below shows the shares of state fuel taxes and vehicle fees diverted to non-highway uses. South Carolina, for example, diverts 31 percent. "
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On 1/16/2020 at 5:02 PM, bikeoid said:
The last one in 2014 was supposed to be for roads only. The 'loophole' was that they forgot an explicit exclusion for groceries. By not excluding it, that was our loophole to claim that it would be included. It's hard to vote on something that they promise to fix afterwards. More detail about the arguments: https://hbaofgreenville.com/facts-about-the-penny-sales-tax-referendum-for-roads-in-greenville-county/
Per the source material:
"“Only 4 cents out of the 16 cents in gas tax returns to Greenville County.”
This is false. The numbers do not lie, but the opposition does. From 2002 until 2011, drivers bought 2.2 billion gallons of gasoline in Greenville County, and paid $353 million in taxes on that gas. Greenville County received $567 million in funded road projects from the Department of Transportation. We actually received 27 cents in projects for every 16 cents in gas tax Greenville County sent to Columbia. This rumor is rooted in the fact that 4 cents of the 16-cent gasoline tax is dedicated to a program for maintenance of county- and locally-maintained roads. However, only 30 percent of all roads in the state are maintained by counties or cities. The rest are maintained by the state. It is only fair for the state to receive the largest portion of the gasoline tax that drivers pay. Even so, the state spends their funds where the needs exist. The fact that Greenville County has received a larger share than it contributed speaks to the need to repair and maintain our county’s roads."*******
The above material only sites gas tax revenue, as if it's the sole source of revenue for the SC DOT.
What about all other sources of revenue? Do they not contribute anything to our roads?
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On 1/16/2020 at 3:50 PM, GvilleSC said:
This would have to be put before the voters of the County. And, most people have never heard of York County's efforts or results. All the critics have to do is point to Richland County (which HAS received a lot of press) to see how poorly managed and wasteful such a system CAN be. You have win people over when you're proposing a new tax, and this would be a hard sell. So, the point is this: you want to see change, but I'm not sure this discussion has a point. So, what are other methods of achieving the results that you want to see?
I'd rather see funding for mass transit, better zoning and planning, and more greenways. If you're asking me to vote for a tax to fund turn lanes and to prop up sprawl, it's not going to happen.
Great points, all around.
I agree that selling a new tax to residents, via a referendum, would be a hard sell - nor do I fault residents for being leery over the fact that funds might not be properly appropriated. Had I not lived in York Co for a few years, I would not have seen the results of their "penny's with progress" program.
That said, I don't think that inaction is a reasonable alternative. And as much as this might seem incendiary, the truth of the matter is that the SC DOT isn't doing the job that it's supposed to be doing. The question is why? Insufficient funding? Inefficiency? Poor structuring?
According to our local representatives, the State is sitting on funds. Perhaps restructuring the system might produce better results.
5 hours ago, bikeoid said:The idea was the same, - to use only on roads but some very high powered lawyers found some weaknesses in the way it was worded.
Thanks for the link; I look forward to reading the material.
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To anyone interested, check out York Co's "Penny's For Progress" website:
https://www.penniesforprogress.net/
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York County's tax structure isn't any different than Greenville's. There might be a way to restructure the system locally, in a way that uses funds more efficiently.
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8 hours ago, bikeoid said:
I haven't compared, but they are probably comparable, except for the 'penny tax'. We are very thankful for having found a loophole to shoot down the penny tax when it was last proposed. (17% tax increase, and possibility to spend on other than roads, as well as taxing groceries)
York County's Penny's For Progress program adds a one percent surcharge, to the local sales tax that's levied, and it is *only* used on roads. What you're saying, is the idea that was floated here, was very different than York Co's program?
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16 hours ago, Spartan said:
It's not as simple as "Greenville doesn't plan." IMO, it's not really fair to compare to the two on a one-to-one basis. Look at where Charlotte was when it was half the size it is now, and you'd probably see the same types of issues that you see in Greenville (and the Upstate as a whole) today.
South Carolina, in general, is not all that interested in any type of meaningful planning outside of city governments. So, Greenville (city) does a great job of planning. The County... not as much. But the same is true for most of SC with the exception of Charleston and Beaufort Counties, and maybe Richland to some extent. I personally worry about the future of the Upstate because of the disjointed or lack of any meaningful approaches to implement what little planning does happen outside of cities. It's eventually going to get built out in a linear, but very "ATL" style road system that will be damn hard to fix. IMO, a lot of it is related to state-level politics, and SC keeps a tight reign on local governments. You also have to understand that SC cities are artificially small relative to their MSA stats. Greenville may be 'technically' smaller than Gastonia, but anyone who goes to both would clearly see that Greenville is the much, much larger city. The inability to annex means affects city funding levels from a direct revenue standpoint and from the standpoint of being able to plan over a large geography. In NC, up until a few years ago, cities could involuntarily annex, meaning that when a new subdivision was added on the edge of town, it got annexed within a few years. So, in a sense, NC has artificially large cities - but also more financially healthy cities with more opportunity to affect and manage growth.
On top of that, North Carolina and South Carolina transportation planning are quite different. It's true that taxes are a part of it - NC has had higher gas taxes for longer, and that has helped funding for road construction and maintenance, but there are other distinctions too. In South Carolina, SCDOT controls almost all the roads, and operates with more direct control over local decisions compared to NC. If they don't like an idea, it doesn't happen. Period. In North Carolina, NCDOT only controls major highways and streets that are not within an incorporated city/town/village. So while they have the same level of control the streets they maintain, NC cities have more direct control over their streets and can plan an implement accordingly. Generally speaking, you tend to only see the larger cities take advantage of this - Charlotte in particular has a large transportation department of its own. So, despite the traffic congestion and confusing layout of Charlotte's streets, Charlotte has been fairly proactive about transportation planning since the 40s - and has invested heavily in moving vehicular traffic around since then. They've only recently (like in the past 20 years) been on the forefront of complete streets, and it will take a long time to fix everything.
I can go on forever about this. My point is that it's not really an apples to apples comparison, so it's not fair to Greenville to Charlotte. Compare Greenville to Columbia or Charleston. That's all fair game, and IMO those other SC metros aren't doing any better.
Thank you very much, for your edifying reply.
So...locally, Greenville City has it's hand in planning, while the County and State, not so much.
Do you know if there's any local motivation to rehabilitate the system?
Is there anyone, locally, who might be interested in taking a look at York County's "Penny's For Progress" program? I lived in York Co for a few years, and the County deserves recognition for the job that they've done. For while the system can't make up for the deficits that take place at the State level, the County roads are miles ahead, of the roads here.
Do any of our representatives, at the local level, have the wherewithal to take this on, or is this too much of a hot topic to handle?
16 hours ago, distortedlogic said:Some excellent points Spartan. I'll also add the fact that SC has the 4th largest highway system in the country in total miles, not per capita. That figure could be a little outdated as I haven't seen an updated figure in a couple of years, but it's basically 4th. To me, that is a staggering fact, especially when you take into account how small the state is geographically. And with a low population over the decades, there just have not been many funds going into maintaining such a large highway system. There are lots of needs around the state and not just in the metropolitan areas. Most rural roads have bridge issues, a total lack of shoulders, and don't get resurfaced nearly enough.
BTW NDL, nice to see you over on UP; didn't realize you had an account here. Welcome!
Thanks for the welcome DL!
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14 hours ago, GvilleSC said:
It sounds like what you're looking for is efficiency in vehicular movement, and over-engineered roadways. Greenville County has room to improve on a lot of things, but the extent to which you advocate for road improvements is poorly advised, IMO. I don't wish Greenville to become anything like Florida's metros, where, yes, the infrastructure is incredibly nice, but the roadways can be quite dangerous (not to mention bland).
Here is some perspective that I can add: this has become a major problem in Fairfax County, where VDOT and the county have spent outrageous amounts of money to alleviate traffic slowdowns. Now that Metro has more of a presence in the county with the Silver Line, they're having to grapple with the incredibly dangerous scenario they've created. The roadways are unsafe for anyone not in a car (pedestrians and cyclists). The metro line extension in the County was expensive, and now so is any remedy to enable humans to actually use the recently-built transit system. Give me some congestion, and save me the body count.
Many of the roads that traverse the Eastside, and in and around Greer, feature two lanes, on top of which are developments with some density. I would have loved to see an alignment of roads, and if not that, it would be great if the City/County/State mandated that the roads that serve new developments, feature right and left hand turning lanes. At the very least, it would keep traffic moving (to some extent). Currently, when a motorist seeks to make a left turn, the only travel lane gets cut off from use. This could be a problem for emergency vehicles.
12 hours ago, vicupstate said:York County has had a Local Option Capital Sales Tax for many years. I believe it was one of the first counties, if not the very first one, to enact it. It is a 1 cent sales tax that goes only to York County infrastructure. These are allowed to run for seven years but can be re-approved for successive seven year periods. I know the first seven years was strictly for roads and included widening I-77 to either six or eight lanes from whatever it was already. It has been re-approved every 7 years since the beginning, I believe. I know it barely passed the first time, but was re-approved the second time by a massive majority.
It was enacted in the early or mid'90's IIRC. Considering the hundreds of millions that has raised since then, it isn't surprising at all to see a major difference between them and our area.
York Co has made good use of their "Penny's With Progress" program; no question about it. Even so...York Co's online "presence" tells me that some degree of infrastructure planning takes place. Conversely, Greenville has a very poor online presence when it concerns planning/infrastructure, which makes me wonder about how much attention planning/infrastructure receives.
And I am not even talking about large budgetary increases; I am simply talking about spending money more wisely. As I mentioned earlier, much of the lighting along Pelham Road features short truss arm fixtures, which illuminate the sidewalk, and little else.
Taxpayers are spending money on inefficient lighting, whose placement doesn't illuminate the roads. The problem with the lighting setup is quite obvious, yet nothing is done, which makes me think that the "system" is either apathetic, or that a proper "system" hasn't yet been put into place.
14 hours ago, motonenterprises said:That probably has more to do with it being a Charlotte suburb. Personally I don't see much wrong with our infrastructure. Not enough for me to complain about. Nothing like traffic etc in bigger cities.
Here's my perspective: it isn't today's conditions which concern me; it's what will likely become tomorrow's reality. There's A LOT of open land on the Eastside of Greenville, which comes in the form of single residency homes, which sit upon several acres. At some point, these huge parcels will be redeveloped, into new, dense, housing developments. Traffic is bearable now, but at some point, many more cul-de-sac developments will be built, whose sole dependence is upon secondary roads (no neighborhood cut throughs). It's at that point when Greenville's traffic will be terrible, and it fixing the issue will have become cost prohibitive.
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19 hours ago, gman430 said:
Low taxes is probably the main culprit. You have to remember also that the state gas tax just started going up for the first time in years and years and years in 2018. Takes a while for that money to funnel through with the construction bid processes and all.
14 hours ago, bikeoid said:Realigning roads does happen here, but only in the sense of eliminating those 'suicide island' intersections or changing an acute intersection angle to 90 degrees. We're proud of our low taxes, and that shows in the roads. Several major roads I travel on are hopelessly pot-holed, which should have been addressed by the gas tax increase. They have to go behind every major rain and patch as best they can so that cars don't have to dodge into the oncoming traffic to avoid a major bump.
I am not challenging what you both wrote, but sincerely ask: are Greenville County's taxes that much lower than York County's?
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3 hours ago, motonenterprises said:
Is Rock Hill a peer? It's a suburb while Greenville is the principal city of a metro area. Don't let city limit population trick you. This is a greatly inaccurate representation of Grenville's true size. The dynamics are different.
That's a fair point - and given that Greenville is the principal city in our region, shouldn't all the more attention be paid to her? And why is York County ahead of Greenville, when it comes to her infrastructure (not that York County is *the* model of excellence, in the area of planning).
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Unfortunately, when people hear the concern that I raise over our infrastructure, it's seen as complaining on my part.
I assure everyone, I am not complaining; why is the system not "fine tuned," and what can be done to improve it? Have our local reps not pressed the SC DOT for additional funding, for what is the State's most POPULATED County? Are our local representatives unconcerned? What is it?
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We relocated to Greenville from the Charlotte area, and while I like Greenville, and while I see and appreciate the area's advantages, I have a HUGE problem with the way in which infrastructure planning/execution is handled.
What specifically?
When looking at her peers, namely Rock Hill, the Greenville area falls far behind, with respect to roads, planning, signage, and lighting. For as much as York County itself is lacking, the County has comprehensive plans, at both the micro and macro level. Conversely, the Greenville area does have comprehensive plans in place, but only for select areas and roads.
What is my issue with Greenville? The County's online presence, when it comes to planning/infrastructure, is simply poor. If anything, it tells residents that much of the County is run like an unmanned train; street signage in many areas is poor; signs are small, oftentimes faded, etc. The street lighting, on many roads, features lighting with short truss arms. A perfect example is Pelham Road: a five lane road, whose lighting fixtures are much like those found on narrow side streets - rendering the streetlights ineffective, yet no one notices nor do they care. Another issue: many roads lack sufficient left and right hand turning lanes, and unlike our neighbor NC, developments go up, yet no turning lanes are installed.
What's alarming is that our area continues to add residents, and many buildings are placed in close proximity to the roadside - making future road improvements unfeasible. I have never seen such a scenario...when I lived in NC, I used to think that the NC DOT was road alignment happy, until I moved here; have *any* major roads been realigned? Traveling in one direction, often requires a series of turns/change of roads.
What's going on here? Is it a matter of our area lacking proper infrastructure planning departments/personnel, or what...? Is the County not leaning on the State for proper representation? The State seems to be sitting on a lot of newfound gas tax revenue, yet no one is acting.
I don't get it, and this thread is not for the purpose of complaining, as much as it is drawing forth answers and possible solutions. Ours is a lovely area, yet if we continue to add population while ignoring the infrastructure, at some point, our quality of life will go down.
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On 5/23/2019 at 4:55 PM, Matthew.Brendan said:
Major infrastructure project, of course they wouldn't use the opportunity to build a bike lane. Whaddya think this is, Portland?????
The Charlotte approach: spend tens of millions of dollars in infrastructure improvements, and six months after the whole thing is built out, start bemoaning the fact that there are no bike lanes.
9 hours ago, Bikeguy said:^ not quite...
I am not being snarky, but where should the truck load/unload?
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18 hours ago, kermit said:
I hate to say it, but the routing of your River District leg is far, far, superior to the current Silver Line routing. Heck; imagine if the line could stop at the Outlet center as well; this would give Millenials in South End, UNC students, etc., rail access to what could be a major shopping and employment district to/for them.
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As someone who loves his (personal vehicle) truck, I can't help but acknowledge the fact that society is trending towards alternative forms of transportation. The City really dropped the ball in routing the Silver Line, and I can't help but feel that a major policy objective was to run it into Belmont - all other consequences be damned.
A Silver Line into the planned River District, combined with the area's natural water feature, could conspire to come out with a development that would *really* put Charlotte on the map.
Everyone loves the River Walk in San Antonio, and the Reedy River/Falls Park in downtown Greenville. Why can't we have something like that, but better, in Charlotte?
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On 5/1/2019 at 8:14 AM, Matthew.Brendan said:Well seeing as there has been zero discussion of rail to River District in all the presentations so far, that should show us exactly where that development is headed. Auto centric surburbia that will need any future rail shoe horned in long after the fact, at higher cost and longer timeline, on a compromised route. Same old story.
Exactly, and I can't help but feel that the whole thing is nuts.
Everyone's clamoring for a line through Ballantyne, yet the City has shown no interest in incorporating rail into an integral part of the next Ballantyne, which is the River District.
Everyone wants for Charlotte to be her own city, to the extent that her attachment with NC as an identifying mark, will no longer be necessary. Imagine if the River District planners took advantage of both their clean slate, and the natural water feature of the area, and created a development that fully incorporated light rail from the get go. Imagine the possibilities that come along with the City's opportunity...
Alas, I am afraid that the City and developer will eschew light rail access in designing the area, and I can only hear the comments now:
"The roads can't keep up"
"No one could've anticipated the River District's popularity"
"485 suffers severe backups, but we're running out of room to widen the road - especially around the Outlets"
"In order for Charlotte to compete with the big boys, we really need to have rail access to all parts of the City, and this means the River District"
"NCDOT said that 485's service levels are poor, but Matthew's/S CLT commuters cannot access rail into the River District"
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I find absolutely amazing the widespread support for light rail into Ballantyne. Meanwhile, the City sees rapid bus service into the yet-unbuilt River District as a satisfactory alternative to light rail.
Amazing.We should throw our widespread support over a River District that is built around light rail access. Such a development, if done right, (coupled with unique riverfront development) would truly set Charlotte a part from other cities.
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18 hours ago, tozmervo said:
So there is space between the inner & outer, but the stretch I'm referring to is already four lanes in each direction. Expansion here isn't the problem: there's a larger road network problem in the area of 485/77 and limited distributed capacity. (That is, most of the other arterial roads are just two lanes with limited capacity.)
Appreciate the reply, but four travel lanes in each direction isn't enough; they should've anticipated a maximum roadway width with the capacity for 5 or 6 lanes in each direction. Not allowing for future expansion, via a large center grassy median, means that future road improvements (*if* they come), will be prohibitively expensive.
The other silly notion that floats around, is that mixed use centers will 'mitigate the need for enlarged road capacity,' since residents will 'live, work and play in the same location.'
This is an extremely silly, and insidious, notion.
Mixed use environments are a great idea, but you can't get around the need for improved roads. I cannot believe that the City/State is allowing the Riverbend development to go, as configured, without major improvements to surrounding roads.
'We don't need major improvements, because most of Riverbend's traffic will come off, and onto, 485'
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None of this rant is directed toward any poster :); I feel passionately about this, as I had come from a suburb of NYC, that did a horrible job in their planning of road infrastructure, and constant traffic jams were a major reason to want to leave (relocate) out of the area.
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5 hours ago, tozmervo said:
So I-485 was completed in summer 2015. Consider: the newest & last leg, barely 4 years old, regularly has significant afternoon backups between 77 and Benefield Road.
Why didn't they leave room in the center median, for future expansion?
When is the City/State going to learn???
I can't believe the Riverbend project; Highway 16 consists of two travel lanes in each direction, and Mt Holly Huntersville Rd consists of two and one travel lane(s). At rush hour, the road is backed up for as far as the eye can see. Solution? Put a massive project on top of an already overwhelmed road.
Why doesn't the State/City stipulate that developers have to fund part of the necessary road improvements?
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On 4/18/2018 at 8:02 AM, hinsp0 said:Red light cameras also raise serious legal concerns regarding one’s right to the presumption or innocence, right to confront the accuser (here, a municipal government), and right to due process.
Indeed.
One of the biggest issues I have with the camera's, aside from modifying an operator's behavior into a reactionary brake slamming event, is that a camera cannot discern driver intent.
If I have got a person tailgating me, whose grill and headlights I cannot see in my rearview mirror, be sure that I am not slamming on my brakes to stop for a just-turning-red light.
Likewise, while up in NY, there was an occasion where an intersection was free and clear, yet the entire intersection was covered in black ice. I was operating a large transit bus at the time, supposedly equipped with ABS (which I later found to be defective - warning lights were off, however). Again...the intersection was free and clear, and a slight application of the brakes had the bus moving sideways. Had I continued on the brakes, I surely would've lost control of the bus, and taken out a utility pole. Fortunately, because the intersection was free and clear, I kept the bus rolling through the intersection, safely. Again...in such situations, an officer can discern road conditions and driver intent; a camera cannot (nor does a camera care).
I HATE red light cameras.
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On 4/9/2018 at 4:43 PM, Matthew.Brendan said:
I’d be extremely pissed if I start getting tickets for clipping the tail end of a yellow.
Now if they would begin ticketing the people whole actively continue through intersections on a left arrow well after it’s turned red that would be great. That chit is flagarant. I routinely see 1, 2, even 3 cars follow through with the turn AFTER the arrow has turned red. It’s ridiculous.
As much as I purpose to follow most traffic laws, and as much as I purpose to stop for red lights (and have an issue with those who run red lights), I *despise* red light cameras:
RED LIGHT CAMERA'S ARE PROVEN TO INCREASE CERTAIN TYPES OF TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS:
http://time.com/3643077/red-light-cams-rear-end-collisions-chicago/
https://www.caranddriver.com/columns/rear-end-crashes-go-up-after-red-light-cameras-go-in
https://www.motorists.org/blog/red-light-cameras-increase-accidents-5-studies-that-prove-it/
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My picture doesn't compare with what's shared on this thread, but from the first day I visited CLT in 2008, I was immediately taken with south Charlotte's streetscenes. (Am I the only poster who loves the appearance of CLT's streetlights?) Here's one of many:
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Is CLT Like Queens (NYC), When It Comes To Nightlife?
in Charlotte
Posted · Edited by NDL
Mine might seem like a stupid question, but I am no longer in my 20s-30s; I very seldom, if ever, venture in and around Uptown CLT.
I first became familiar with the CLT region in 2008, and at the time, it reminded me a lot of Queens. What do I mean? Outside of a few districts, Queens is (was) often regarded as a "place with density; an area that - outside of a couple of distinct districts - it's a place that lacks distinction and, to a lesser extent, cohesion. There are parts, for example, that have generic mid rise apartment buildings, but the complaint most often heard about Queens - sans a handful of districts like Bell Blvd - is that the borough is a place "where there's nowhere to hang." In other words, it's kinda boring.
When I first became familiar with the Downtown CLT area in 2008, much of it reminded me of Queens: handsome, but there are swaths of development, with "nowhere to hang."
I can visit in and around CLT, but my experience is nothing like the experience of someone who *lives* in South End, Uptown, etc.; do you feel that there's sufficient cohesion? That the CLT area as a whole - and I am not talking about compact and trendy areas like NODA - has a genuine and satisfying nightlife scene?
What brought my question about? Thanks to y'all, I have been keeping track of development in and around South End, and much of it's impressive. But I wonder what life is like; there are a handful of non descript mid density apartment buildings, and then you have mid density commercial buildings, that encorporate little retail/nightlife.
So...what say you?