[Higher education in South Carolina]

LOL - must be missing some logic here. Is there some connection to the link above and some historical comment by the WSJ?

[CONSTRUCTION THREAD: Magnolia Park Town Center]

Nobody outside of the NE, Midtwest, West, Florida, DC, Atlanta, Charlotte, Clemson.... I hate to break it to you, but transit is making a huge comeback across the nation, and no major city is complete without a good transit system.

I am taking the bus to campus/work tomorrow, and pretty much every day that I don't have to work in Greenville for that matter. Have you ever actually ridden on a GTA bus? You seem to be making assertations that so far as I can tell, are not the least bit true. GTA has a nice new fleet of buses, its too bad the money can't be allocated to operate a decent system. I'm confident that will change eventually.

I think that far too many people in South Carolina have the attitude that any growth is good growth, when that is simply not the case. Politicians especially. And I think its more rooted in ignorance, and the history of our state's poor track record with economic development until the past few decades. There are many people, even on this board, who just assume that any new development is a good one, without taking a look at it first. There are good projects and bad ones, and some that are in between. If you can't take a step back and look at the good and the bad parts of new growth then you are just doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. Greenville, of all places in this state, is in the position to demand and expect higher things from developers, and it should set its standards higher so that the new growth areas will be developed properly. The issue is not stopping growth, but managing it so that it happens in an orderly, well designed fashion.

All projects generate traffic. Traffic comes with a thriving economy. The issue is not that traffic exists or is increasing, but how its dealt with. Woodruff Road is a funnel for way too many vehicles, because there are literally no other ways to go that are more convenient. A 10x10 grid of streets has thousands more options than one road with a few intersections does. Also, don't get caught up in the idea that a "grid" has to be rectilinear. The key issue is connectivity. The more connections a place has, the more options you have in reaching your destination.

Cap'n, Krazee, myself and most others here understand that the way Greenville has been growing since the 70s is not setting us up for a Greenville that will be something BETTER than our neighboring metros (Atlanta, Charlotte). There is a reason we don't track the development of every McDonalds and fast food restaurant, but we do track projects like Magnolia, and RiverPlace. This is UrbanPlanet afterall.

There is so much above I need to try to synopsize. My cut is:

1. Transit is making a BIG comeback.

2. GTA buses are great and we should all take a ride on one.

3. All growth is not good, many on UP don't understand this esp. SC pol's

4. Traffic would be minimized if we had a grid system

5. Most on the board don't like the way G'ville has been growing since the 70's, I guess excepting the ones from #3 above.

Starting from the top, I'll take your word on the transit trends. Obviously, there are people on the board who follow this breathlessly. My only thought is, until G'ville is MUCH larger I wouldn't get my hopes up for a significant increase in demand or interest on this front. Until there are REAL traffic and REAL parking problems in core areas, there won't be big demand for transit.

Which brings us to item 3, where I think most everyone agrees some developments are better than others. The issue is, for those interested in developing an urban core (see above), G'ville needs LOTS of growth, both urban AND suburban. The "managed growth" you advocate slows growth in general and delays the development of the urban core that I assume you'd like to see. Hey, I'm not advocating anything goes, but developments like Magnolia, the new one behind the Pointe, and yes, the ones on Pelham are not horrible developments. Yet, they are constantly questioned, if not outrightly opposed, by many on the board. I think that is bad news for the metro area, and by connection, for urban development within G'ville. Stopping a development on Woodruff isn't going to make the developer move it to DT - but sometimes it seems that's what some people think.

To digress, the fact is city development is dependent on large masses of people in both the city and outlying areas. It seems popular to decry the "growth and sprawl" of Atlanta, but if you really study it, DT and MT Atlanta have been BOOMING the past 10 years or so with huge development and infill. This was not the case 30 years ago, but large metro growth has inevitably created the demand for intown residential, retail, commercial, and yes, neighborhood development. Similar trends can be seen in Charlotte. This is driven by a critical mass that effectively demands core urban development for the same reasons as in #1 above, traffic, commute times, parking, nightlife, etc. G'ville doesn't have critical mass and none of the forces that drive this demand. Hence, core urban development is slow and spotty - what little we have is driven by a handful of eateries and a little nightlife, which is good, but we need more people to drive more urban development. Slowing growth in the 'burbs doesn't help our people needs.

Lastly, I'm not so sure so many are unhappy with the way G'ville has developed since the 70's. There are lots more options for living, dining, and shopping than when I moved here in the mid-90's. I think most on UP and elsewhere like that. I realize most growth has been in the 'burbs, but considering that the G'ville suburbs were so small it was inevitable that growth would flow there. Along the way, DT has done alright given the limits of a small city. What will help DT is continued growth around the city to help create that critical mass.

[CONSTRUCTION THREAD: Magnolia Park Town Center]

Well forgive us "loonies" for not yet having grown old and boring and caught up in the way things are that we still look at some things the way they should be. Desire for progressive development is not a "no growth" position. Personally, I'd like to think that one day these massive parking lots will be a thing of the past. Perhaps I'm just whining, and according to your post, I am no one anyway...

Well Cap'n and Kraz I guess you guys are taking the bus to work tomorrow. Have fun and hope the AC is working!

But seriously, Cap'n - I guess it is "just whining" that I'm talking about. We can all hope for the best developments that good planning can provide. I'm with you there - but it's all the whining about EVERY development that has been announced in recent weeks that is old and tiring.

Believe me, there are a lot of "no growthers" in G'ville (I'm glad you are not one of them). Between them, the real environmentalists, the guy next door who never dreamed that the 100 acres of vacant land next him would ever be developed, and all the old-timers who think a dozen cars at the traffic light constitutes TRAFFIC - all these forces combine to slow a lot of good development in G'ville.

The Greenville News has been giving this group a prominent forum for years. I'm just surprised at how often this is emulated on UP at the mention of any significant project.

[Greenville area population statistics]

First of all, calm down. Stop taking any little comment as a slight against your city/metro/county, etc.; it ain't that serious.

For the record, I said that I expect Greenville County to stay at #1 for at least several more years--"several more years" here meaning at least forty to fifty (which corresponds to your "couple decades"). Within that time frame, something could happen that could propel some other county past Greenville County (yes, as much as you hate to think about it, that could theoretically happen--although I'm not seeing anything that would indicate that it might). So I was merely making room for that possibility in my statement. There's absolutely no reason to believe that current growth rates will stay as is forever, as you seem to imply. I could cite several incidents, both in this state and elsewhere, where one city/metro/county was displaced by another within a relatively short period of time.

Geesh.

That's cool... Peace!

[Greenville area population statistics]

I suspect Greenville County's place at #1 will be secure for at least several more years.

WHAT?? Maybe I'm reading this wrong Kraz, but you state this as though you expect some county will surpass Greenville in the next "several years". Hate to spring this on you, but even if G'ville growth slowed to a crawl it would take a couple DECADES for your lower State counties to catch up.

The fact is, that since about the mid-twentith century G'ville's raw growth has been outpacing anything else in the State every decade since. Last year's growth estimates continue this 50+ year old trend and no low country or midland county is going to come close to even reversing this trend for the foreseeable future. Sure there are a few fast growing lower State counties, but most of those were very small twenty years ago and even today none of those have even come close to catching Charleston or Richland in their own neighborhoods.

I know it kills the rest of the State to think about it, but Greenville IS the big county and the big Metro (no matter how the Fed's try to slice it).

[CONSTRUCTION THREAD: Magnolia Park Town Center]

What is the deal with you people and sprawl? Sprawl happens when development happens. All these businesses on Woodruff Road are only there because of the amount of housing that is going down Woodruff Road. Not simply because it is close to 85. When developers announce these nice new developments outside the city like Acadia and the new Cliffs developments you all cheer. But when businesses follow them you scream sprawl. Do you honestly think these businesses locate in certain areas just to make traffic a nightmare? NO, they are simply following the population. If there is no population, they don't make money. And if all these businesses located downtown as some of you would like then you would say how downtown has become too much like Woodruff Road...YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!! Be happy that our city is growing and that those on the outside are taking notice!!!!

Thank you, Greenvilleguy! All the recent whining about "sprawl" makes me think the looney enviromentalists have invaded the board to try to gain support for their "no growth" positions.

I'd LOVE to see a larger, more dense DT, but one thing we need for that to happen is to develop a larger Metro area. These new developments are filling-in dead space within the metro area - creating a bigger feel. Bottom line we need both development DT and on the outskirts of the G'ville. Oh and yeah, we'll get some more traffic - sorry, but noone outside the the NE wants to catch the bus or subway to go to work. Get over it, it's the 21st century and the auto is here to stay!

[GSP International]

Why would GSP be "dragging their feet" on the addition of the GSP-MIA flight on American?

[Economic Development in South Carolina]

The reasons for the interest in Charleston and Columbia are Sanford and Taylor. It's NO secret Sanford's people have steered every major investment opportunity to Charleston - at least as best they could. Now ol' Joe 'the log cabin guy' is trying to get the government town into the act.

Google has dozens of these sites in the works, but not all will happen based on incentives, demand, etc.

[GSP International]

Miami would be a very nice addition. American's service to ORD and JFK would duplicate existing destinations from GSP, but if more flights are needed then that is wonderful. I would like to see GSP add the following cities as destinations:

Boston

Las Vegas

Los Angeles

I think there is demand for all three, especially Boston. Vegas would do well, even if it were just one flight per day. I would like to think that there are enough travelers from GSP to justify a non-stop flight to Los Angeles as well. Thoughts?

I don't know of a flight from GSP to JFK. I know there are flights to Newark and LaGuardia, but don't know about JFK. To me, the addition of both MIA and JFK would be huge for international travelers. The number of connections that could be made to Europe/Mideast/Asia from JFK and Latin America from MIA is substantial and would give Delta some serious competition for GSP travelers on such routes. Also, another option into ORD can't hurt.

Such a move by American could signal a big push into the GSP market. I work for Fluor and since we moved our HQ's to Dallas in the spring the American flights to/from DFW have been PACKED. We need a larger plane into DFW or move flights per day on the CRJ's.

I agree about the need for a Boston flight - I think it should be priority number one. Also, agree with the need for something to the West - LA sounds as viable as any other.

[Economic Development in South Carolina]

The key thing for SC is to not put all of our eggs in the hydrogen fuel basket. My personal opinion is that it will prove to be a good fuel source in the long run, but not in the near future. In the mean time we have more pressing issues to deal with, such as improving our knowledge based work economy. Research firms like those that USC and Clemson are attracting with Innovista and ICAR are a solid start in that regard.

Exactly what firms have been attracted to Innovista? I know of no established companies - just a few existing USC research projects and a couple State funded, so-called, startups with a few employees each. The State and Columbia seem very focused on this one technology seemingly due to the urging of a few faculty members. Anyone familiar with Venture Capital knows you need to have bets on several technologies to achieve one big winner (in this case economic development for the area). Such technological depth is, so far, unapparent at Innovista. The Innovista/USC initiatives need to display true economic development results before we compare them to ICAR and those hundreds of jobs attracted to date.