Lunican
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Posts posted by Lunican
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Commuter rail could be cheaper than light rail because it could use existing tracks. Light rail would have to be an entirely new system. A train from downtown to the beach would be great though.
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Freight railroads are highly opposed to allowing passenger trains on their tracks. It drastically interferes with their operation and puts commuters on their property, which is a huge liability.
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Local commuter rail: Is it full steam ahead?
Noelle C. Haner
Senior Staff Writer
ORLANDO -- After more than two decades of discussion, commuter rail in Central Florida finally may be heading down the right track. And it may happen by 2009.
"The stars are sort of aligning," says Tawny Olore, the Florida Department of Transportation's commuter rail project manager.
In March, U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, secured $8.9 million in federal funding for rail stations and supporting infrastructure for the 62-mile, 15-stop system. The state also has agreed to pick up the tab for the first four years of the system's operations and for the use of CSX Transportation's A-line tracks from DeLand to Kissimmee for the line -- a commitment that could cost the state as much as $450 million.
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This article has echoed my points.
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Doesn't CSX only move coal through town late at night. So the lease back of track time during these hours should not interfer at all with commuter operations.
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They move through at any time.
Here is a little trip back in time to 1998 when the same thing played out with LYNX.
Optimistic LYNX in negotiations
maybe someone learned something from that and they can try another approach this time around.
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Will you be bitterly disappointed if it turns out that the state was not acting in a self-delusionary manner, that it had a good handle on the impact (to freight) of its proposal, and especially if the state and CSX strike an agreement ?
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No not at all, in fact I will feel just the opposite (but who cares what I feel). I hope I'm proven wrong. I just thought I could add some insight to this issue, even though I know it's not what anyone here wants to hear. Consider yourselves more informed than most on the issue.
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Okay, an Orlando Sentinel reporter has graciously emailed me and this is what he said, in so many words:
The state is optimistic that it can either purchase the tracks outright, then lease back to CSX as necessary to facilitate freight transit, or purchase right-of-way at certain times of the day.
Now, he allows that he is not privy to state/CSX discussions (and the possibility that CSX could balk). Nonetheless, the state expects to reach an agreement with CSX by late summer or early fall. With the pessimistic view being a year or more to secure a deal.
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I don't think the state has any idea how these negotiations are going to proceed.
Did anyone say that the deal would have CSX taken off the tracks altogether ? Did anyone suggest that the deal would make necessary thousands of trucks dumped on roadways ?Yes, the mayor of Winter Park is quoted as saying that he wants to see freight trains taken off the CSX tracks. The fact that no one suggested the need for more trucks without trains is a problem. No one has thought about it. OUC burns several train loads of coal a day at their Stanton Energy Plant, each train the equivalent of 200-300 trucks. What do you suggest as an alternative to shipping by rail other than truck?
And no this won't have any impact on my job.
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Do you work for CSX ?
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Hey now you're on to something...
Just to aggravate everyone a little further with another angle:
Lets say tomorrow a deal is struck and the tracks are sold to whoever for commuter rail. All the freight that was previously moved by rail to local businesses will have to move by truck over the roads. So after adding thousands of trucks to the roadways, you better hope the commuter train can get some high ridership numbers and take tens of thousands of cars off the highways.
I'm all for commuter rail, we just need to think it through carefully.
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Lunican, I don't know what information you have, but Orlando is not negotiating with CSX, the state/feds are, and ALL indications point towards buying out of the rights of the CSX tracks for passenger service, with limited frieght operations. CSX has other opportunities to move south through the peninsula (like the linke through Ocala to Lakeland). The only thing rediculous are your posts. --- See railroad map:Rail Map Here
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This is a perfect example of taking a simplistic view of the situation. Yes there is an alternate route south through the state for them to operate on, but what about the customers they serve along this route? Not to mention Taft Yard, the CSX intermodal terminal, a UPS terminal, and a CSX Transflow terminal that are all served by this route with no alternative.
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i don't mean to make light of CSX's concerns, or your argument. The difficulty I have is in believing that folks have toiled, on the fed/state/local level, for many months, to produce a sophisticated and far-reaching proposal - released publicly, with some fanfare - knowing full well that it is never going to fly.
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These projects are proposed throughout the country for cities facing the same issues as Orlando. Many of these proposals are based on seizing the right of way from the railroad with little or no compensation. Unfortunately these propsals are created by people that do not understand railroading or the fact that they can not use their powers of eminent domain over the railroad-- which allows cities to acquire property for public interest projects even if they are not for sale.
Hasn't Orlando released many plans with much fanfare about this issue over the past 15 or 20 years? The problem is they DO think it is going to fly...why they think that remains a mystery.
Don't give up on it though, it would be a great asset to the area.
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I dont think CSX has (or wants to) publicly and definitively say "NO" to the whole thing for PR reasons, but they've stated the criteria that has to be met at a minimum. It is doubtful that the state/county/city fully understand the implications of meeting the criteria and the costs involved. It really just comes down to money. If they want to do it, and they have the cash, it can happen. CSX will not subsidize this project.
As for these articles that are being printed in the papers about this, they treat the dealings with CSX as an afterthought or as a minute detail of the deal, when in actuality it IS the deal.
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Commuter rail is nothing but trouble for CSX so they are not going to agree to something that causes them headaches and costs them money. I personally would love to see commuter rail in Orlando, but the concerns CSX has are valid.
Here is why they are opposed to it:
1. It eats up their capacity to run freight.
2. It dramatically increases their liability.
3. It requires expensive upgrades to the infrastructure.
4. The commuter operator would be incapable of properly training engineers to operate on a mainline.
5. CSX would be responsible for dispatching these trains as is the case with Tri-Rail.
Its not impossible but it will be very hard for these obstacles to be overcome. Why would CSX volunteer for something that complicates their business and costs them a lot of money? No proposal to date has included a figure high enough to cover the costs.
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Huh ? I'm pretty sure they're farther down the road with CSX on this than you might imagine.
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See this is what I don't understand. The city or county just assumes they will be able to use those tracks, when CSX has no intention of allowing it. They have definately not made any progress in talks with CSX. In fact, I know that the propositions that Orlando has brought to the railroad have been viewed as ridiculous.
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Jacksonville, FL
SunRail
in Orlando
Posted
1. Sunset Ltd.-- This train is canceled east of New Orleans indefinitely
2. Silver Service-- This is two separate trains, two northbound and two southbound daily
3. Auto Train-- Terminates north of Orlando in Sanford
4. Grand Luxe-- This will not be an additional train. It will be several cars on the end of Silver Service Amtrak trains.