[210 Trade | EpiCentre]

Then you are not really looking at that article that was posted in that thread. I don't think there is an answer to your question on if this specific project will fail or even if it will be built at this point because all we have is a proposal and silence as to what is going on about it. We don't have access to the business plans, numbers, projections, that was the basis for this proposal in the first place. However the fact there is silence as to what retailers that are going to be there, and posts from people who might be "in the know" that things are not going well, and cancelation of other plans by this developer (info posted above), then it invites the very speculation that we have going on here.

Personally I fell the epicenter fails the city in that it creates too many blank walls on the streets and much of the activity takes place off of street level. And if you look back further in this thread you will see some of the more specific criticisms. The solution of course would be to design something that puts the activities back on the streets on all sides where possible, get rid of the people unfriendly aspects of the design, and do more to make it attractive to more than just chain outfits.

The last one is more difficult as you get into the questions as to why retailers, including movie theatres shun the downtown area. That is a much bigger issue and if you read through the several years of threads here now, you will find your answers to that that. I am not going to summarize them in this single post.

All we have is a proposal and silence? We don't know if it will be built? Where have you been? Construction financing has been secured, a huge, well-known GC was selected for the job, a white monolith was imploded, a Dee-Dee-size hole was dug, several levels of parking have been built in the hole, several massive overnight concrete pours have taken place for the foundation of the tower and the deck, and it looks like we're about to be above grade with steel coming out of the ground anytime soon.

Did a fairy fly over downtown, wiggle its nose, and make all of this happen, unbeknownst to the developers? Are they still trying to get zoning and figure out what to do with the existing structure while all this took place? Hmm....

I did read the article. It provides bullet points for creating great street-level retail. Fine. On this site, you have 3 streets. In the renderings, we have multi-story retail along all 3 streets, with internal corridors and plazas coming off those streets and more storefronts to accomodate 300,000 s.f. of space. Is there something wrong with that? I don't see blank walls anywhere - what renderings are you looking at? I see glass and storefronts and signage.

The fact is you can't fit it all onto the streets, there HAS to be some facing the interior. So they made open-air plazas and corridors with outdoor seating. I think the architects did a good job stuffing 10 lbs of sh-- into a 5 lb bag.

The other huge benefit of the design is that all the access points can be controlled for special events. For example, if they have the right license, you could take a drink from one bar and go out in the plaza with it, finish it, then go somewhere else. Or pay one cover charge at the gate at the street, if there is a charge, and get a wristband to go to any venue. I've seen this setup in other cities with similar developments.

Retailers shun the downtown area because NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE LIVE DOWNTOWN YET. You will NEVER get Gap, Banana, Victoria's Secret, Barnes & Noble, or Borders to be first movers to ANY downtown that lacks residents unless the deal is heavily subsidized. They simply won't do it. If you've seen them somewhere like that, the developers bought the deal and it's a loss-leader for them. My educated guess is that Ghazi couldn't afford to do that, but will have the space available in 5 or 10 years when leases start to expire and more people are (hopefully) living downtown.

And something that is attractive to chain outfits will always be attractive to local outfits too. I'd eat my hat if there wasn't a ton of local retailers dying to be there. The problem is two-fold: (1) The land was expensive, construction costs are sky-high, so the rent is almost certainly too expensive for a small company with limited capital to risk it in an unproven market, and (2) Construction and permanent lenders demand signed leases with national credit tenants to mitigate their risk, so that's what developers go after first, and everyone complains. Sorry, but that's reality. Everyone's just trying to off-load as much risk as possible, so this is what we end up with, and it happens all over the country every day.

Metro, you keep talking in circles. I ask how you would improve the design to your standards, etc, and you reply:

The solution of course would be to design something that puts the activities back on the streets on all sides where possible, get rid of the people unfriendly aspects of the design, and do more to make it attractive to more than just chain outfits.

I'd like to hear specific changes you would make. What exactly is people-unfriendly? How would you make it more attractive to non-chain outfits? Steal the construction materials?

I love the design and the concept, and I can't WAIT to live there. The whole thing tickles me to death, and I'm tired of following the intelligent conversations around here littered with misinformation and misguided, baseless criticism.

[210 Trade | EpiCentre]

It would probably be helpful if you went to that other thread for this question. However now that the building is designed there probably isn't much that can be done about it. They are going to have to learn the lesson the hard way like so many other developers have learned this by some of the terrible designs they have thrown onto the streets of Charlotte. It would seem to me the architecture schools are simply not doing their job at teaching what makes a good design for a public space and what doesn't. It isn't like they don't have 50 years of failure to look upon as an example.

I've been following that thread and it's basically a history lesson, a wish list, and more complaining. No solutions for Epicenter, at least.

So I go back to my original question: with the size of the site and a financially viable program in mind, what would you change about it to meet your requirements? How would you make it work?

[210 Trade | EpiCentre]

Ok, so how do you get to the 2nd and 3rd floor?? Outdoor steps?? Glass elevators, what??

Outdoor steps, elevators, walkways between upper levels of buildings...etc.

I've seen similar developments with outdoor escalators too, so I wouldnt be surprised if they had those.

[210 Trade | EpiCentre]

There is also a thread in this section that discusses what makes good street level retail and what doesn't. By every count, the Epicenter has made all of the mistakes. These were based on current renderings. It's biggest failure is the design that attempts to make it its own experience rather than better integrating it with the rest of the fabric of downtown and contributing to that fabic of downtown Charlotte. This is what malls do and the point is if this is going to be nothing but a mall experience, then people will go to the real thing.

I hear a lot of complaining, but no solutions. What would you change about it? How would you fit enough retail/office/hotel/residential space to make it financially viable while meeting whatever requirements you're talking about? Let's hear some ideas already instead of the constant whining.

[210 Trade | EpiCentre]

Not so sure about that . Don't see how you can ascertain that from the renderings either, that are probably little more than something for potential condo buyers to look at.

Look at the buildings dude. They aren't big enough to fit retail space on both sides AND an interior corridor that would be even remotely attractive or wide enough to handle any traffic. Everything is open air, and all storefronts are on the exterior.

[210 Trade | EpiCentre]

This won't be the first one in the Charlotte area as there was one in Concord Mills when it opened, but it closed a year or so ago. It's the first for downtown though.

You're referring to a different concept. The one that was in Concord Mills was what you would find in an airport. Fox Sports Grill is completely different...think Sullivan's with a sports theme.

[210 Trade | EpiCentre]

Supposedly there will be a few floors that are going to be the new hotel concept from "W" hotels, a "W Loft" that will be part of the building and will serve residents as well as guests.

The hotel will be a separate building along 4th street, and not part of the condo tower.

http://www.theghazicompany.com/images/futu...mplex_large.jpg

[The Vue]

We all seem to be holding our breath on this one........

The developers of the Vue have apparently spent LOTS of $$$ on advertising, going through permit processes, oodles and oodles of attorneys fees, etc. Would it be safe to say perhaps $2-3 million has been spent so far?

Of course any project can fall by the wayside--I wonder what the precident is for a developer to cancel a project after spending that kind of capital. Seems like it would be a devastating loss for a company to sustain.

Aside from their incessant advertising, they're doing a horrendous job of managing the press and public opinion. Save for that blurb about meeting presale requirements, they've been nonexistant in the news. They really should have planned some sort of PR blitz in the midst of all this 210 trade activity.

[210 Trade | EpiCentre]

Well not being allowed to assign it or advertise it is the rule on everything in Charlotte. 10% down is certainly the standard for developers that chose to discern between investors and owner-occupants.

If there is no cap on the number they will sell to investors, then I'm even more certain that a majority have been investors so far.....CLTfanatic....can you give any insight on this?

I don't think it's the rule on everything...a few of my friends have flipped contracts at several developments around town.

Regardless, it is a built-in disincentive, but we'll see how it turns out...

I reserved yesterday, it was packed with people, and sales are exceptionally strong. I think they did an outstanding job of creating the right mix of floor plans and pricing it very well.

[210 Trade | EpiCentre]

While its great that 210 Trade is selling so quickly, is there any cap on the investor share? My gut is that at least 75% of the units sold so far have been to investors, both flippers and for rental purposes.

I doubt it. In the contract it says you can't assign it and you can't advertise it in any way (except word of mouth) prior to closing. Plus it's 10% down for investors.

I believe that would discourage most speculators as they actually have to close on the unit...